AI Literacy Framework: Cultivating Future-Ready Leaders
📑 Chapters
00:00 - Introduction
01:03 - Philosophy behind Paradox Learning
03:33 - Stella describes herself in one phrase
04:55 - Why AI Literacy Framework?
07:42 - Defining AI Literacy & AI Pedagogy
14:41 - Improvement on Stella’s AI framework
18:04 - Discussing Assessments & case studies
20:52 - Defining Formative Feedback
25:07 - The ideal future for Stella
29:20 - Stella’s ideas at 11 years old
31:52 - Stella’s magic
Watch the full episode here.
💕 Story Overview
On S5E1 of the @MAGICademy Podcast, we’re happy to welcome Stella Lee to the show. She is the Director of Paradox Learning, a consulting firm that specializes in developing innovative learning solutions across various sectors. She has been working on digital learning strategy, design, and implementation for over 20 years, becoming a known figure in the e-learning and AI fields. We talk about her AI literacy framework, its importance within organizations, and the diverse uses of AI and other tools in education.
One of Stella’s key messages is that while AI can enhance skill development, it still requires significant human oversight to ensure accuracy and relevance, creating a necessity for L&D professionals to continuously evaluate AI-generated outputs. In this episode, we explore the need to improve the assessment part of the framework, the importance of feedback mechanisms, and how different tools can be used to improve the digital learning experience for different organizations.
🌼 Magical Insights
AI Literacy Framework: This addresses the growing necessity for professionals to be AI literate as AI technologies increasingly influence various industries. Organizations can leverage this framework by offering tailored training sessions that cover the eight dimensions of the framework, workshops that allow employees to work with datasets, and establishing clear ethical guidelines for AI use within the organization
Defining AI Literacy and AI Pedagogy: AI Literacy refers to the ability to understand, use, evaluate, and critically reflect on artificial intelligence (AI) technologies. AI Pedagogy, on the other hand, focuses on the methods and practices of teaching AI concepts. It aims to equip learners with the necessary skills to navigate an increasingly AI-driven world. Leveraging both concepts for organizational growth requires leadership commitment to these techniques and comprehensive and modern training programs that reduce the resistance to change within the company.
Room for Improvement: While the AI Literacy Framework is comprehensive, there are several areas where it could be enhanced for greater effectiveness, such as making AI literacy resources accessible to all educators, regardless of their technological background; going beyond theoretical concepts by integrating more real-world applications and case studies to enhance understanding in learners; and establishing a feedback loop within the framework to help refine its content over time.
Focusing on Growth: One benefit of the framework is that it helps us allocate our time and resources much better. We can’t 100% trust technology and it will always need human oversight, but the fact is that it allows us to process certain data way faster, making us able to focus on growth instead of getting bogged down by the ant work.
⭐ What’s Stella’s Magic?
Her ability to make friends. To find connection and common ground with people, share conversations and be in the moment with them.
Conclusion
In conclusion, Stella shares her insights into AI literacy and its critical role in modern education and organizational learning. She emphasizes that while AI has the potential to enhance learning experiences, it is essential for Learning and Development professionals to maintain vigilant oversight of AI-generated content, as this ensures that the information provided is not only accurate but also relevant to learners' needs.
Stella also addresses the evolving nature of AI technologies and their applications across various sectors, as she advocates for a proactive approach to assessing and improving these tools to create more personalized and effective learning experiences.
If you would like to stay tuned with our future guests and their magical stories. Welcome to join us.
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Long, D., & Magerko, B. (2020). What is AI Literacy? Competencies and Design Considerations. Proceedings of the 2020 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems.
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Dr. Stella Lee is an educator and consultant in the fields of e-learning and educational technology, serving as the Director of Paradox Learning, a consulting firm based in Calgary, Canada. With over 20 years of international experience, she specializes in digital learning strategies, artificial intelligence applications in education, and learning analytics.
In addition to her consulting work, Stella is a technology columnist for Training Industry Magazine and an international speaker, sharing her insights on digital ethics and the future of learning.
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Jiani (00:03)
Welcome to MAGICademy Podcast Today with us is Stella. She has been exploring and building and researching into the eight elements of AI literacy for future ready leaders. And we've been having like so many different talks about AI and it feels like all the information are very segmented and there's not
truly kind of a place where we can go to and start to look at AI and especially AI literacy from like the big picture and also evidence -based expected. So thank you Stella for building this opportunity and thank you for creating and researching and constantly evolving this this framework for AI literacy. So can't wait to see what's happening.
Stella (00:59)
Yeah, no, thanks for having me always happy to talk about AI literacy and yeah, happy to share that.
Jiani (01:08)
And I think before that, I'm curious, so you are the founder and chief consultant for Paradox Learning. And the name really kind of makes me interested like paradox and learning. Can you just share a little bit of the philosophy or the idea behind naming your consultancy?
Stella (01:17)
Yes.
Yeah, it's my own company. I have it for about 10 years now. It's kind of scary to think it's 10 years. And so when I first started it, was, I know I'm always very interested in, well, first of all, I'm intrigued about just paradoxes as a notion, as an idea. And then of course, there's Plato's work on the learning paradox.
Jiani (01:41)
Yeah, time flies. But you'll have each one.
Stella (02:02)
And I start playing around with their words. And when it was time to name my own company, I just thought, Paradox Learning, it's a good fit because sometimes it is paradoxical. And there's a range of gray areas. And it's not always black or white. And sometimes perhaps what we think it's
you know, correct things might change. It's also helped me to check my own assumptions about things and there's no absolute truth in what we do. And so it's just, it is a fun way of, you know, playing on words. And also practically the URL was available when I registered for my website. And I don't have to even have weird spelling.
Jiani (02:52)
Yeah, thanks for your...
Stella (03:02)
Exactly. It's that name available as a business. So yeah, I just love the notion of it.
Jiani (03:11)
Yeah, I do appreciate the concept of like paradox because especially as we move into the space of AI and future technologies and as we're looking at its impact on us, our health and wellness and also learning and development and leadership and all of that, it's really, everything's shifting so fast. And you're kind of like looking at a thing from different perspectives and -
Stella (03:15)
Yeah.
Jiani (03:38)
Sometimes like you said sometimes it be right sometimes it be wrong. So there's no like absolutely right or wrong. It's always situationally based and Really? Upside down. Yeah
Stella (03:47)
And sometimes it's upside down, inside out. So I think it's a fitting reflection of the time that we live in.
Jiani (03:56)
Yeah, reminding, a constant reminder for us to always be mindful of our limitations and always explore, at least consider the possibilities of jump outside of our conception box and sleep on the other side or other sides. So beautiful.
Stella (04:03)
Yeah.
And I think there's something very human about it too. think, you know, having paradoxical thoughts and phenomenon, it's something, you know, very human. And I think so much talk about tech. think it's also a good time to think about like what are some uniquely human qualities.
Jiani (04:36)
Yes, and I think it's always in the first place. Beautiful. Let's go through our first question. Yeah, so, B -D -D, in front of you lands a spaceship. Out walks a friendly alien. The alien can be tall, short, or small, or 10 -size, believe. If you were to use one word, one sound, or...
Stella (04:41)
Yeah.
Sure.
Jiani (05:06)
one sentence to describe or to kind of introduce yourself to the friendly alien. What would that be?
Stella (05:18)
I first of all, loved your emphasis on a friendly. My first instinct is just turn around and run. if the alien is friendly, then I would introduce myself. Hmm, it's a difficult question. I think I would say I'm in a business of knowledge sharing and knowledge building. And I think that's very accurate in presuming the alien understands what that means.
Jiani (05:22)
I think that's it for me.
Stella (05:46)
But I think that's very much who I am, essentially coming from a background of being an educator about building community and sharing knowledge. think that very much speaks to my value and what I do.
Jiani (06:09)
Beautiful, beautiful. And if you wanted to use one movement, what would that be?
Stella (06:14)
my god, I don't have enough, I don't have good moves.
Jiani (06:18)
Hahaha
Stella (06:20)
Maybe he just jumped out.
Jiani (06:23)
Beautiful, Alright, so why AI literacy framework?
Stella (06:31)
Good question. So it started about a year ago. so the origin story is that I was asked last year to run a workshop for teachers, for university professors in Europe. And the organization that asked me to do it is InnoEnergy. So they're renewable energy organization in Europe. And they have a co -op.
program with university to offer master's degree for sustainable energy. And so when AI came about, just like every organization, just like every educational institution, we had to think about how we're going to incorporate AI into teaching and learning. so I put together, as I was putting together this workshop, and they asked me, can you also put together a toolkit, some sort of practical guide?
if you will, to hand out for the teachers. So as I was putting this together, the practical guide and the workshop content, I started thinking, okay, there's so much focus and so much talk about what are the tools, like what are the AI tools out there? What are the, you know, because there were many, like it still continue to be many on their market right now. But there's also, so a lot of focus is like, you know,
What are the tools? How do you use them? How do you use it for developing your courses? How do you use it for assessment? So there's a lot of conversation about the usage of the tools and what is the best selections of tools. But then I felt like it's missing a bigger picture. It's missing the foundation about what is AI. First of all,
It's not clear even in the research community in the AI what AI is. There's many definitions. So we don't even have a shared definition or understanding. lot of people talk about AI like it's one thing, but in fact, it's a collection of technologies, right? It's computer visioning. It's natural language processing. It's robotics. So.
it could be many things. So I start putting together something, a framework, if you will, to kind of get us on the same page, to get us to look at not just the tools and the technologies, but also what is the societal impact? How do you teach what I call AI pedagogy? What are some other use cases outside education? How do we develop critical thinking skill?
because AI outputs, as you know, it's not accurate, it's biased, it has lot of misinformation. So I started putting together this AI literacy framework for the workshop and it just makes sense. And that's how I started. And a year later that has evolved. And so I continue to work on it as of today.
Jiani (09:44)
That's beautiful. What is, can you share with, I think you have this like a beehive kind of graphic illustration of like the eight dimensions of AI literacy and yeah, yeah, these eight. Yeah, I can see it. Yeah, perfect. think our audience will see that as well. So before we dive into maybe one or two of them, what is AI literacy?
Stella (09:49)
Yeah.
Yes, I do.
Can you see it? Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jiani (10:14)
Is that like understanding AI in the...
Stella (10:16)
Yep.
Yeah, the way I define it, yeah, it's understanding. It's knowing how to use the tools, but also like understand like the basics. Like what are the terminologies? Right? How do you like, do you understand the difference between machine learning and neural network? And, and what's data? What you know, what, so what types of data is out there?
So the way I define AI literacy is understand, able to define, but also able to evaluate different tools and also to assess it and critique it critically, not just taking the tools at face value. And also able to kind of share and disseminate these ideas based on your
your usage of the tools, your interaction with the tools, and how do you be critical about it? And how can you be informed about it? How do you use it with caution? How do you unpack all these nuances? So it's more than just knowing how to use it. It's more than knowing what's out there, but also the interpretation, the interactions, and the application.
Jiani (11:41)
I see. So it's really kind of a comprehensive understanding of that. And I think the eight dimensions actually illustrates what literacy really means. It's that what kind of like covers those eight dimensions. I was, think three of them actually kind of stand out at least to my perspective and hopefully our audiences. I think the number six, AI pedagogy and number seven, assessment.
Stella (11:45)
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jiani (12:09)
the number eight feature of work. We can maybe dive into a few of them. What do you mean by AI telegraphy?
Stella (12:22)
Yeah, so it's been something I've been giving a lot of thoughts about, not just the past year, but even before AI. mean, AI, it's not a technology, but we've been using technology for teaching and learning for a really long time. Some people might have heard of the term EdTech or education, education technologies, or digital technologies for learning, digital learning, different terms. And so
Reality is we've been using computers to teach. We have learning platforms or learning management systems or LMS. We use digital tools in the classroom. So technology, it's not neutral. The fact that we choose one tool over another to teach and learn, it shapes the way we go about.
processing the information, it shapes the way we go about disseminating information. For example, if you're using an overhead projector, back in the old days, that's a technology. And that means you're choosing a way to display visuals, right? So visuals, the fact that using diagrams or whatever that you're using,
It's shaping the way people are interacting and learning. so same with using an online discussion forum in an LMS. The fact that you're using an online discussion forum means that your philosophy about teaching and learning is about social engagement, right? It's about social learning. It's about peer -to -peer learning because the technology is shaping that type of learning.
Jiani (14:06)
Mm
Stella (14:15)
I want us to think about as we're picking technologies for educational purpose, the technology is also shaping the way we go about doing instructional design. It's shaping the way we teach. It's shaping the way students are interacting with the content. Video -based learning is also a decision we make about, people like short -form videos because it's a very popular form of information consumption.
And by making that decision, you are also making assumptions that this is a good way to teach and learn, but also you might be excluding other things. So I want people to think very clearly on why are you picking these tools? you forgoing other ways of teaching? Are you emphasizing certain ways, certain learning theories? And so that's one area of what I mean by AI pedagogy. And the other area is
There's so many tools out there and a lot of the teaching and learning tools are not explicitly called that. I mean, for example, we used PowerPoint and Microsoft Word and Excel. All of these are, or we use Zoom for digital classrooms. They're not explicitly designed for teaching and learning, but we ended up using them.
So we also need to understand what are the tools available for teaching and learning purposes. At the same time, also, do we know how to critically evaluate the tools and say, this is actually impacting learning outcomes, and why is it? Is it impacting positively? Is it impacting negatively? Or does it have no impact? We should be able to look at each tool.
Jiani (15:40)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Stella (16:10)
and not just take it at face value, but also not let the vendors who are selling you the tools to drive that. Because they are all going to say, this is amazing. This is going to be game changing. They're going to, you know, they're all going to, I mean, fair enough. They're trying to sell a product. Exactly. I mean, that's their jobs, but it's our jobs to be informed consumers of using these products. And so I
Jiani (16:26)
reason yeah
Stella (16:40)
But it's my hope that we would also be asking the right questions. We would not just say, is adaptive learning, is it the magic bullet that's going to solve everything? Is it really helping students to learn better? Are there research on it? Are there use cases? And also the way you implement it, it's different. So we need to think through how we're going to.
Jiani (16:57)
Probably not.
Stella (17:08)
implement how we're going to use it. Contacts matter. Your students, depending on who your students are, matters. So that's kind of in the nutshell what AI pedagogy is about.
Jiani (17:24)
like position, it's like the skill development outcome is to align with the learning approach and the learning approach needs to select which technology or specific functions of artificial intelligence. that a video AI? that a programming or something to fit that people out in the limites?
Stella (17:46)
Yeah, like even the limitations. like every tool has limitations or challenges. By implementing even like if you're using chat GPT or any other forms of chat bots as a study coach, would the limitations or the challenges be, would the learners be overly reliant on the tool? Is it limiting in the way people
think more freely and more creatively, you know, so these are things that you need to think it's true and just like every tool has limitations, every tool has risks and challenges. So we need to dig a little bit deeper into it without before we just use them.
Jiani (18:38)
Yeah, and also that passing through leadership, like based on what you want the teams to accomplish, align the use of technologies such as artificial intelligence with your goals and rather than fear of like, I don't want to miss out. Okay, is that what I really need? Yeah, all everything. I love you,
Stella (18:43)
Yeah.
Yeah, and you know, like, there's so many tools out there and a lot of them cost money. it's also an investment you need to think about, you know, either at an individual level or at an organizational level, because it's money that you spend. That means you, you know, you're not spending it on something else.
you know, it's called opportunity cost, right? What are you foregoing? Is this the right investment for you?
Jiani (19:33)
And assessment and future work, which one do you think you should happen to know?
Stella (19:36)
Yeah.
I can talk a little bit about both, actually. So when I first created this framework last year, it only had seven areas. So as soon as somebody knew, I just added it this year, like a month ago, I think. And that's what I'm saying. Like it keeps evolving and changing based on like, because AI keeps changing and evolving and we use it, you know, our usage keeps changing and evolving. And so
It used to be assessment is kind of folded into AI pedagogy. But then it becomes a bigger topic. I think this year there's a lot of talks about, well, first of all, from the more educational institutions perspective, there's a lot of talks and concerns about academic integrity, student cheating with AI. But even in the workplace learning world, people are still looking at assessment.
less so from a summative, but more like a formative, like how we use AI to give feedback. How are we using AI to help measure learning progress? And that's becoming a bigger conversation, especially coming from learning analytics community. There's always effort in measurement, in evaluation, in understanding
learning impacts and learning outcomes. So it just becomes like naturally it evolve into a separate area. And also from the AI tools marketplace, there's a lot more tools that are specifically for assessment purposes now. So I think it makes sense to add this additional dimension. So that's the reason why I added it. I'm still thinking a lot about
what needs to go in there. And the obvious, yeah, exactly. I already started putting some thoughts into it. Like we need to know, what does it mean by assessment tools? And I really like that it get us to think about assessment as a bigger topic. And same with AI pedagogy. What I like about these categories about AI is that it makes it
Jiani (21:37)
If this will continue all three, it will, yeah.
Stella (22:02)
it make us reflect on current and past practices in general. Is this even something that it's working? Classroom teaching in the lecture style, is this still a good idea? Yes, in some contexts, in some scenarios, it's still a good idea, but we should not use it for everything.
The wonderful thing about technology, really pushed us to think it through and say, well, there's alternative way of teaching and learning, this alternative way of assessment. Maybe the way we've been doing it is not that effective to start with, or maybe time has changed. Maybe it used to work, but now we should rethink how we can assess people better in a more authentic setting. And we need to rethink assessment and
and also teaching and learning strategies and approaches. So those two areas, I also love that it kind of pushes us a little bit and say, well, this is the time to reflect and perhaps there's some space to redesign the way we teach and learn.
Jiani (23:23)
There's some particular case studies in number seven focusing on assessments that you think is worth sharing and they're a fantastic job leveraging the power of artificial intelligence to make assessments accurate, rigorous, and powerful. I'm watching you now.
Stella (23:47)
Yeah, well, I've seen, like in the assessment dimension, what I see in a lot of the effort is really kind of like the first cut of doing the grunt work that people don't want it, like humans don't want it to do because, know, perhaps if you are marking hundreds of, you know, essays, what can AI help you to look at it as a first cut? Obviously,
I don't trust nor should we trust the technology 100 % right now to just do auto marking and do all the assessment. But I think it's, I've seen it in a way that it can kind of give you like a rough idea of like, here are, you know, the piles of, assignments that needs more feedback. And so it helps you. It's almost like having an assistant who say, well, here's where you need to put more, you know, pay more attention.
or here are the piles that maybe it's pretty good. So you don't have to spend as much time. it helps you to of allocate your time and attention better. So I've seen examples of that being used that is more efficient. But I haven't seen example of like actually doing the assessment well enough that there's no human touch.
Jiani (25:07)
Can you can you be more specific about the particular example that you are referring to? Which elements what box? What assessments are they doing? Is that like a workflow performance evaluation or quality assessment or?
Stella (25:27)
Yeah. Yeah. In, in workplace learning, a lot of the assessment components, it's focusing on giving feedback, especially feedback on, on the jobs. for example, if you're a mechanic, for buses and you need to learn how to change tires on buses and, and
And perhaps there is not enough instructors or master mechanics to give you feedback. So AI could be a tool to give you the first initial feedback on how well you've done your job. in addition to assessment, it's also a performance support tool. It would be at the point of, as you're changing your tire, I have a question. Can I scan this image and upload it to?
Jiani (26:02)
Hmm.
Stella (26:23)
this platform and give me some diagnostic suggestions. And once you've done it, can you then upload the image to verify whether you've done it correctly or incorrectly or where are areas that you need to improve? So from a performance feedback perspective, giving that instant feedback when you need it the most, like two days later, right? Because you need to know whether you get it done correctly or no, why or why. So giving that kind of feedback.
which we call more formative assessment, is really helpful at workplace performance support tasks.
Jiani (27:06)
For folks who are still thinking what is formative feedback, it's more like in the process, like kind of like a micro dosage of feedback. It's the feedback in the process.
Stella (27:12)
Yeah.
Yeah. And you're not getting assessed in a way. So summative feedback is think about your final exams or anything that you've been graded that you get a score. But formative, like you're saying, yeah, it's more process giving you that feedback along the way. It could be even in a form of reflective questions to kind of check in.
Jiani (27:42)
you
Stella (27:44)
along the way and to kind of test. I like to call it like a self -knowledge test.
Jiani (27:50)
Yeah, and I think that also the timeliness really makes a difference because whenever we are doing skill development learning and sometimes it can feel frustrating and if you have grids, you have no problem persisting and finding out answers and figuring out. But for people who may have not as much grids and resilience, if there's some really big challenges, there's no one to provide immediate feedback to help us with.
Stella (27:59)
Yeah.
Jiani (28:19)
get over that bump on time. It can't be so different. That's always the challenge.
Stella (28:22)
Yeah, I think I think sometimes you don't have enough people, right? You don't have people. You don't have enough people to I know, or they're not there at the time that you needed them, right?
Jiani (28:33)
Yeah, we all work with limited resources wherever we are and maybe that AI micro -assessment and feedback, if we manage to limit their hallucination and accuracy and inclusivity, think that would be helpful. I mean, yeah.
Stella (28:51)
Yeah, and it...
Yeah, and I think it needs to be very, of course, quality of the feedback needs to be audited and monitored to make sure that there's also consequences of getting the wrong feedback, because then people would get the job done wrong, and they might not even know it. So I think there needs to be an auditing process. But there's also, I like to see more
instances of instead of large language models whereby you ingest everything from the internet, the way I'm seeing the availability of smaller language models that you ingest just the organizational knowledge. I think that has a high accuracy rate and you can also have more control over the output and you can fine tune it better.
Jiani (29:53)
Yeah, I think that's one of the most effective ways moving forward is to bring in that contextual knowledge into the context.
Stella (30:02)
Exactly.
Yeah, because I wouldn't trust the internet for any source of, you know, knowledge that has vast consequences. I wouldn't be looking up how am I going to perform at heart surgery based on Google, right? So nor should you rely on chat GBT on that kind of things because it's lacking that quality control.
Jiani (30:21)
Yeah.
I think the high risk still is even more difficult than organizational knowledge. It's calls some practice and I know, maybe in that case, we still need like a lot of community. But I think with AI, we're able to strategize, strategically focus our limited resources to the places where it's most needed.
Stella (30:56)
Yeah.
Jiani (30:58)
I'll... love you.
Stella (31:00)
Well, that's my hope. And I think that is the best case scenario, right? If you're looking a little bit ahead into the future. Like, personally, I'm less interested in general artificial intelligence, right? There's a lot of hype about, when are we achieving general artificial intelligence whereby it's like all the sci -fi movies. I'm more interested in, well,
Would these tools help incrementally support our work and life for the better, especially on things that it's taking the burden away from us of doing very repetitive, very boring, very uninspired, very physical work? I think that would be great.
Also, the same time, guarding our own creativity, guarding all the areas that make us human. We have to be careful that we're not losing that as part of the technology, right? You don't want to outsource your emotions to AI.
Jiani (32:23)
Yeah.
as we move into the future, because I think that tops into number eight. So into the future, we were to kind of envision one of the best versions of the future, which will be the advancement of technologies like AI, we reach the AGI, intelligence, maybe what else, web 3 and the mirror links and all that. So what would that look like? What would that be like?
Stella (32:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I'm not going to think about AGI, I think like in
Jiani (32:55)
Yeah, let's take that out of the mix.
And we can come back to the chat mode. I think we've been kind of chatting alongside with them.
Stella (33:06)
yeah.
So do want me to stop sharing the screen? OK, so I can look at you easier. Yeah, mean, HCI, it's fine. But I think looking at more like the new future is to help people navigate all that.
Jiani (33:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, we use that.
Stella (33:35)
audit fear and because I feel like AI as a conversation is very anxiety inducing for many people. And because it's the fear of unknown, and also the anxiety of am I being left behind? Am I still relevant? Like, do I need to learn this thing? And how is it going to impact my life, especially people, perhaps already have decades of work experiences is very
It's very scary because they felt like, it's too late. I don't want to learn this thing. I, you know, I really like what I do. I don't want that to be taken away from me. And so I think the future work area, I really wanted to, you know, have people look at collectively, like, well, is it jobs? Like, are they they jobs that are being displaced? Or are they components like
of jobs that are being displaced. Because right now, it's not so much the jobs, right? It's different tasks being displaced or replaced with AI. And so I think being more informed about that would help. And also, I put it in that area about we should learn from the past as well. Because this is not the first time we had any disruptive technology.
being introduced. We had industrial revolution, we got a steam engine, get get trains, we get cars, we get ATM machines, we get you know looking back far enough you get the weaving looms right. So like each time there's actually if you look into the history it's quite interesting because they yeah it displays certain jobs or certain tasks but they also create other jobs other tasks to do and and so I think
having that balance perspective to kind of keep us like to lower the anxiety to say, okay, so, you know, we know, we don't know what future is going to hold, but we know that it's going to change. You know, what that change is like, we don't know, but we need to prepare for it. How do we prepare for it, we should start looking at what are some skills that perhaps we need to be
not 100 % being a data scientist, but we need to understand the basics. We need to able to say within the changes of these jobs or changes of these tasks, where am I still relevant? Where am I still good at doing? And that I can still make a contribution, right? Where by AI or other tech is not gonna replace. So I think it make us examine that more closely and also hopefully
make people less stressed about that.
Jiani (36:28)
Yeah, and I think it's temporary. And I think in the end, it's going to be new balances will be established and the paradox, we need to shift our perspectives a little bit so we can have a fuller picture of what that really is. And goal is changing. perpetual students, what we were talking about.
Stella (36:40)
of, yeah.
Yeah, and I think it's also it helped us to look at different sectors or industry and, you know, kind of know about which industries are maybe at a higher risk and which industry perhaps, you know, we hear that, for example, counselors are, know, it's those psychologists are less likely to be
replace because it requires high human touch. hello, have I lost you for a second?
Jiani (37:29)
I you're free.
Stella (37:31)
should I repeat our last sentence?
Jiani (37:35)
You mentioned about the counselor will not be replaced.
Stella (37:37)
Yeah.
Well, certain jobs are less likely to be replaced because it required human emotions, emotional intelligence and high, more high touch. And so it's also, you know, good for us to know about that way to kind of looking at the bigger picture and not just your own industry, but
but just other industries in general and say, which industry has a higher rate of displacement and which industry has a lower rate? So then I'm always encouraging people to look at the bigger pictures, step outside your immediate domain and immediate jobs and look at where the wind is blowing.
Jiani (38:30)
Yeah, step into the real world.
Stella (38:34)
Exactly, exactly. Well, sometimes I think we get really caught up in just like our day to day and we get really caught up in, in just our, our specialty, our jobs and our, and our domain area. And sometimes we don't look at other things. Yeah.
Jiani (38:49)
It's very important to step outside and keep it clean. And that can essentially empower what you are doing now. That's usually the case. I get inspired. I'm just trying to improve my work. Beautiful. As we move into the magic portion, I will give a little recap of everything we talked about, only the highlights. So we talked about the story behind the...
Stella (38:53)
Yeah.
Okay.
Jiani (39:17)
paradox learning and how paradox is such a very interesting concept where whenever we start to see or understand something, we try to see that from one perspective. But the paradox idea is to remind us that maybe sometimes we should step a little bit to the left, step a little bit to the right, or try to see the limitations of the current concept and try to maybe just poke a little hole outside of your current perception and then just try to see things from...
Stella (39:43)
You
Jiani (39:46)
different perspectives, maybe that will bring you solutions, or that will really kind of make you really interested and enlighten you in a very interesting way. We also talked about the AI literacy framework, there's eight elements, and AI literacy, when it boils down, it's really kind of just developing and cultivating a
Stella (39:48)
Yeah.
Jiani (40:14)
big picture, critical thinking, abilities to really look at, to put AI on its place, in its place. AI is just tool. All tools are created by humans and in service for human and humanities evolution and bigger goals as we evolve. So, and evaluate all the situations, your goals to align this.
Stella (40:23)
Yep, exactly.
Jiani (40:44)
purpose of the poor and in that particular context, in that particular moment, towards helping you, empowering you as leaders and implementers to reach that goal for a collective. So in particular, we talked about...
Stella (40:57)
love that way you summarize it. I think ultimately my framework, it's about empowering people so that they can use it as a tool, right? They can use it as a conversation starter. They can use it as a self -reflection or assessment tool to say, where am I at? How do you make sense of AI? Yeah. Thanks for the summary. I love it.
Jiani (41:22)
Exactly, exactly. cool. Yeah, beautiful. All right. So, well, I think I wanted to add one more thing to the summary. In particular, we did look into pedagogy, also the assessments. The assessment actually stood out because we're talking about assessment -based feedback or evidence -based feedback.
Stella (41:33)
sure.
Jiani (41:50)
in the moment or in the flow of work during the process. And that will save a lot of valuable time and energy from human beings. So we can really invest more strategically the human energies and insights into more important and critical times or stages of the work. So that will be really very impactful if we really can kind of leverage AI.
Stella (41:52)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Jiani (42:20)
loosely and effectively in that way and everybody will benefit and yeah, much to learn in that space, much to explore in that space. So what did Sala enjoy creating so much that kind of disappeared when she was 11?
Stella (42:32)
Yeah, agree. Yeah.
Okay.
not much has changed. Well, I mean, I don't honestly, I felt like I'm doing very similar things. I really love. So I don't know if I told you I came from a visual arts background. So I was trained as a painter. So when I was 11, I was doing a lot of sketching, I was creating comic books, drawing and
Jiani (42:52)
Ha ha!
real.
Stella (43:17)
and doodling, illustrating stories. And I still do that with my work and for my hobby. And I was a nerdy little kid. So I also really love playing with tech, playing with robots and legos, and I also love to read. I spent a lot of time in the library. I felt like my work very much incorporated all of those elements still.
I play with tag. I still apply my creativity in my work. still doodle. I still draw. still am in education. So the reading and learning comes naturally. yeah, so not much has changed.
Jiani (43:48)
Yeah you are.
Not much has changed, just context has changed. Nice. How do you keep that childlike wonder in a way that empowers who you are?
Stella (44:20)
Yeah. Well, that's easy because my dad's like that. I've learned it. I've learned it from my dad. I kept I joked about him as Peter Pan, the boy that never grows up. And he he passed away two years ago now, but I still I still channel him and his
Jiani (44:36)
You're the best.
Stella (44:48)
his way of looking at the world, it's always through this lens of curiosity and of exploration. He's always very excited about a new experience, trying out new things, you know, and embrace it, like, and saying yes to things. He's not somebody that says no often.
He says yes to new experiences, to new food, to pretty much anything else. He's always with so much enjoyment as well. So I think I still very much have that as something as part of my upbringing.
Jiani (45:39)
But when you have a little model like...
Stella (45:42)
Exactly. yeah, so I do enjoy it. And I try to keep my sense of curiosity. I try to keep my sense of exploration. And I'm very much like him. So in that sense.
Jiani (45:58)
Beautiful. So what do you think overall is your magic thing?
Stella (46:02)
My magic. I don't know. But my boyfriend said to me that I can make friends with anyone. So I think my magic is about connection. And I think my magic is about finding common ground with others and able to share conversations and, you know, just just be
in the moment with them. So I don't know. mean, I don't have every little insights about my magic. So I have to I have to get more feedback from other people to see.
Jiani (46:34)
I
Yeah, yeah, I do. the process, I think the connection and also among judgment, like maybe that's the reason why you build connections is that ability to see people for who they are and make people feel safe and then and pay the ground for connections. Yeah.
Stella (47:04)
I try. Yeah.
Would you say your magic is also getting people to talk about things? Since you're, since you do podcasts, do you think that's, that's your magic?
Jiani (47:19)
I've...
I guess I am I like people like Every human being is a mystery to me. I was like Okay, great. I wanted to learn more so I have this like to me they're like planets like a mysterious planet have their own magic inner light
Stella (47:36)
Mm -mm -mm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jiani (47:51)
ecosystems and power and I feel like I'm just I'm so honored to come across them in my limited time as a human being compared to the length of the universe, the age of the universe. So I just have that like, I'm just so thrilled.
Stella (48:02)
Yeah, yeah. That's it.
Yeah.
That's beautifully put. I love that. Like, your magic going.
Jiani (48:19)
Yeah, and you were one of the planets. I was like, I'm so curious. This planet is filled with eight elements of AI, literacy framework. like, it's my world.
Stella (48:29)
The planet of paradox.
Jiani (48:35)
What did?
and shifts, shifts dimension. I'm trying to... Beautiful. So yeah, so that will be our conversation and thank you Stella for coming to us. I hope you have a great time.
Stella (48:39)
That, yeah, exactly.
No, that's great. Yeah. No, I love it. It's very interesting. It's original. It's different. You actually you bring so much energy to it. I really like that. Yeah.
Jiani (49:03)
Yeah, I think it's mutual. That's beautiful. Thank you so much.
Stella (49:08)
And thanks for your questions. Really enjoy digging a little bit deeper and you make me think too. Like after this conversation, I'm going to go back and reflect on some of the questions you asked and perhaps I can find a way to write about them and also that help further my thinking and my work. So thank you for that.
Jiani (49:33)
I think the assessment piece would be really interesting.
Stella (49:38)
Yeah, like when you talk about like AI pedagogy, I've been writing little snippets of it, but eventually I need to write a more cohesive piece. And I, know, because it's something I need to think more deeply, but also I think it's I wanted to produce something that's also helpful for other people as well. So
Jiani (50:01)
always always the answer and you have to have fun too so you can then create helpful information
Stella (50:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, I try to be practical as well. what is this piece of information? Is it going to help people? Can they use it? Is it going to help with their work? And sometimes the challenge is balancing some of the academic training and background, as you know. And it's great. It's evidence -based. But sometimes academic can go in circles and never get to be applied. And so the challenge is connecting the academic
training to to workplace applications. So
Jiani (50:47)
Yeah, and workplace application needs academic backgrounds and the emphasis approach because they wanted to make the investment work and they need to know what works, what doesn't work.
Stella (50:51)
Yeah.
They need to be evidence -based. Yes. They need to research. need to understand the foundational knowledge and theories and learn how to apply them. exactly. So it's two ways.
Jiani (51:13)
So they don't have to go in circles, can just go straight to where they need to be and use exactly what they need to do, achieve what exactly they need to achieve in as short period of time as possible so they can move on to the next thing and build bigger impact. So, yeah, it's all interesting. Thank you, Stella.
Stella (51:22)
Yeah.
it got cut off for a second. hope you're able to edit these things out. Okay. Perfect.
Jiani (51:36)
yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the internet is kind of unstable.
Stella (51:42)
It's... yeah, it happens, because it gives me a little circle and it comes back, so...
Jiani (51:45)
So I will be kind of just, yeah, I will stop recording.
Stella (51:50)
Okay.
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