Power of Attention: Neuroscience for Transformation
📑 Chapters
00:00 Intro to Lauren Waldman and Learning Pirate
06:00 The Role of Attention in Learning
13:44 Wellness and Focus
14:41 Importance of Schemas in Memory
26:44 Curiosity, Childlike Wonder, and Novelty
29:24 Potential of AI & Extended Reality in Learning
32:00 Cautions & Challenges in Neuroscience
33:58 Recap of Key Points Discussed
35:20 Lauren's Childhood Wonder
39:33 Lauren's Magic
40:23 Closing Remarks and Contact Information
Disclaimer:
The content shared is to highlight the passion and wonder of our guests. It is not professional advice. Please read our evidence-based research to help you develop your unique understanding.
💕 Story Overview
In S3E10 of @MAGICademy Podcast, we delve into the fascinating world of neuroscience and learning with @Lauren Waldman, founder of @Learning Pirate. Lauren shares her expertise on how our brains process information, form memories and adapt to change. She explains the crucial role of attention in learning, the concept of schemas, and how novelty stimulates our brains. The conversation explores the importance of rest and sleep in memory consolidation, the challenges of changing established neural networks, and the potential impact of new technologies on learning.
Story Takeaways
The Complexity of Attention: Attention is not a single process but involves multiple networks in the brain. It's a complex cognitive function that allocates our resources to specific stimuli or tasks, processing various aspects like color, motion, sound, texture, and shape simultaneously. Understanding these mechanisms can help us design more effective learning experiences.
Schemas and Learning: Our brains organize information into schemas, which are patterns of thought or behavior. When learning something new, we filter information through existing schemas. This can be beneficial when building on existing knowledge but can also hinder change initiatives as the brain tends to revert to familiar patterns. Recognizing this can help in developing strategies for more effective learning and organizational change.
The Physiology of Memory Formation: Forming a new memory involves creating and strengthening connections between brain cells in specific patterns. This process takes time and requires practice and rehearsal. It's not instantaneous, which explains why learning new skills or changing behaviors can be challenging and time-consuming. This understanding should inform how we approach learning and skill development.
The Power of Novelty in Learning: The brain responds more strongly to novel experiences, with neuroimaging studies showing up to 3-5 times stronger cellular responses to new stimuli. This insight can be leveraged in learning design by incorporating novel elements to capture attention and enhance engagement. However, it's important to balance novelty with the need for repetition and practice in forming lasting memories and skills.
⭐ What’s Lauren’s Magic?
Curiosity about people and her ability to connect with them, allowing her to participate in and guide their journey of joining forces with their brains.
Conclusion
In conclusion, this episode equips you with practical neuroscience-based strategies to enhance your skill and development processes. By understanding the brain's mechanisms for attention, memory formation, and adapting to change, you can implement more effective learning techniques, such as incorporating novelty to boost engagement, allowing sufficient rest for memory consolidation, and patiently building new neural pathways when acquiring new skills or habits.
-
What is the Importance of Schema in Influencing Change?: https://youtube.com/shorts/gEH31HeDbGw
How Reducing Stress Helps Regain Focus?: https://youtube.com/shorts/XKrA8gUByuc
How to Navigate The Future in Science and Technology: https://youtube.com/shorts/LPold-vMeCI
How to Use Novelty When We're Learning: https://youtube.com/shorts/vU9H3_5a57k
What Impacts Our Ability to Focus: https://youtube.com/shorts/08HaqNwaXFs
Why Learning Takes Time- Understanding Brain Memory: https://youtube.com/shorts/yFsoNcfbt_I
How Can Learning New Things Help Improve Our Brain Function: https://youtube.com/shorts/SIVEM5RH6Jg
What is the Difference Between the Top-Down and Bottom-Up Attention: https://youtube.com/shorts/3hwyuvv6-Sw
How Schema Influences Learning and Creating Memory: https://youtube.com/shorts/aG2SLLLV2x8
Lauren's Magic: https://youtube.com/shorts/d-zredVHPgE
-
Mangun, G.R. (2020). How We Pay Attention. Frontiers for Young Minds.;
Lytchenko, T.K., Seekins, S., Huntamer, S., White, T., Caplovitz, G.P., & Mruczek, R.E. (2021).
Attention: Your Brain’s Superpower. Frontiers for Young Minds.
-
Lauren Waldman is the founder of Learning Pirate and a pioneer in applying neuroscience to professional and personal development. With a background as a CLO and years of experience in education and industry, Lauren has positioned herself as one of the few scientific learning designers working to integrate brain science into everyday life and work.
http://www.learningpirate.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauren-waldman-learning-pirate-4666bab/
-
Jiani (00:04)
Welcome to MAGICademy podcast. Today with us is Lauren, the founder of Learning Pirate. And so Lauren has been working in the intersection between neuroscience and its application in the industry for many, many, many, many years.
Lauren (00:11)
Yarr.
Jiani (00:24)
And she recently launched a new course initiative called Learning in Partnership of Your Brain, which I took and everybody should because it's such an interesting, engaging, fun experience for you to get the foundations of neuroscience nailed down. So, so great to have you, Lauren, today with us at the podcast.
Lauren (00:46)
it's awesome to be here. Let's teach everyone how to join forces with their brain. Let's do it.
Jiani (00:48)
Hahaha
Yes, yes, excellent. So, so people may have read about you in all sorts of media outlets and probably took some of your previous courses. If you were to introduce yourself in a way that nobody has heard about as of 2024, how would you introduce yourself as of today?
Lauren (01:14)
Okay, let's say, let's take a different angle this time. I would say like, I'm a rock and roll scientist, but I'm better known, I say better known as the pirate, but best known as one of the few scientific learning designers out there trying to bring everything about the brain into our professional and our personal lives.
Jiani (01:38)
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Because a lot of times when we're thinking about learning design, people think about graphics, information, and we maybe from time to time we wonder, we wonder actually what the neuroscience say about learning actually and how can we integrate into that design piece. However, we usually get overwhelmed by the other things and really kind of.
Lauren (01:55)
Hmm.
Jiani (02:05)
don't get enough time to think deeper into the neuroscience piece. So I'm glad that you're with us today. So we get to dive deep about neuroscience without overwhelming everyone. So we're curious, why learning pirates?
Lauren (02:16)
Yeah.
That's the favorite question from everybody is why the pirate? After going through a lot of my educational career and then into my academic one and then finally in industry as a CLO, when I became the scientist, I started to really realize that the only way...
Jiani (02:28)
Yeah.
Lauren (02:45)
that I'm going to make a mark and sort of make a brand and a name is to brand the company in such a way that A, people would pay attention and be curious. So using the curiosity and the novelty of the brain itself, but also the pirate kind of gives me a little bit of authority to shake things up a bit and to say, you know, I don't like the word disruptor.
I think I've been called that before, but I don't want to be a disruptor. I'd rather be someone who's just here to help us evolve. So that's where the pirate comes from. It's like we're really treading new waters and we're searching for better ways to do things. So it's like, you know, what do we find at the end? We find that the brain is the treasure and learning and memory is our outcome.
Jiani (03:32)
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I think when I first heard about the Snem Learning Power, I was like, immediately a ship comes to my mind and the ocean, the vast water from the ocean comes to my mind. So immediately I see this image of a boat and a big ship, actually a big ship with a deckload of courageous and encouraging and people.
Lauren (03:40)
Hehehehe
Jiani (03:59)
innovative people and then they're trying to get like a compass and they're trying to like navigate the the unknown navigate like the unknown of the water of unknown and going into afar and Yeah, could be on planet earth could be somewhere in the a different planet system and
Lauren (04:00)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Jiani (04:18)
even in like a spaceship. So it's usually gets me a sense of like, it's so exciting. We're going to discover something just like Marco Polo discovered like new land. And so we're in a...
Lauren (04:20)
Hahaha.
Yes.
And we do have a crew, and you're now part of it. You've joined the Learning Pirate crew and the whole community. So we've got a massive Learning Pirate crew who's helping us navigate this and really, really helping build the wave of momentum for change.
Jiani (04:37)
Yeah. Yes.
Beautiful. Yeah. And I think sometimes people say, we, you know, we go for change. And I think I resonate with you like evolve, like develop. It's always evolving change. The ultimate goal for changes to evolve because otherwise we may just go in circles. We can change all the time, but we're not actually kind of evolving. So I really like how you are kind of tying that into, into the end goal.
Let's kind of dive deep into the neuroscience piece. So in your courses and one of the first chapters, you kind of spend a lot of time explaining is the attention. And you said the attention is a gateway or gatekeeper for our learning. And that's how everything happens and take place. So.
everybody know like attention is kind of all we, I need to pay attention, but what exactly is attention and when we pay attention, what exactly is happening here?
Lauren (05:50)
So let's let's just do a little bit of revision. Okay, so what attention is the mechanism to focus and focus is really what it is that we're after because attention as I'll explain is multiple it can be we've got multiple lines of attention and we've got multiple networks of attention in our brains that are helping us to focus on specific stimuli at any given time. So
When we think about attention specifically, what we want to understand is that attention affects multiple areas in the brain and it's processing different stimuli like color and like motion and sound and texture and shape. And so as you can imagine, that's what I think like five things I just listed off. So attention is a very complex cognitive function. And what is happening in the brain is we are...
allocating, we're sort of allocating our cognitive resources to very specific stimuli or tasks. So I say more simply put, it really is involving us, like selecting and then filtering relevant information from a vast amount of sensory inputs that we receive.
Jiani (07:10)
So it's a lot of evaluation, prioritization. So it's more like very specific selection of information that we allow it to be into our short -term memory to get it processed. Is there any, so when we fail to pay attention or when we fail to focus, what usually goes wrong?
Lauren (07:34)
Mm.
What's happening? There's...
Jiani (07:37)
Yes, which we experience that a lot in nowadays.
Lauren (07:42)
Yeah, well, I mean, there's two attentional networks that I like to talk about. And if we, one's called the van and one's called the Dan, and that's the indicative of the, it's called the ventral attentional network and the dorsal attentional network. And when we, I'm gonna take away the sciency terminology. And I think most people have heard something that's called top down and bottom up. So,
Attention can be driven by what we call like the top -down process now. I like to describe this as Your where's Waldo or your where's Wally like when you're searching for something So if your attention is being driven by a top -down process It's more goal directed so it's voluntary but when we look at the Sorry when we go so that was top top down losing my attention already. Yeah, so it's really I know I
Jiani (08:33)
Yeah, see that's so hard nowadays.
Lauren (08:36)
I'm trying to get ahead of myself. So just think of your attention. So the top -down attention is really going to be influenced by what your goal is or what your expectation is. It's also going to be driven by past experience, where bottom -up, bottom -up, if you want to sort of, for anyone who's listening, you can kind of imagine this as a jack -in -the -box. So think a jack -in -the -box pops up, right? So when we're looking at...
Jiani (09:01)
Yeah, surprises.
Lauren (09:03)
Yeah, surprises. So when we are looking at that bottom up, it's kind of triggered by some seasonings triggered by something that is unexpected in the environment. So that could be maybe a siren goes by and you go to see if it's an ambulance, is it a fire truck? It could be something very novel that just catches our attention. So it's either we're going to be working with these these, you know, dominant networks of I'm using this one network to.
deliberately focus on something that's very goal driven or something catches me off guard, like the jack in the box.
Jiani (09:40)
So they should ideally they should work together or.
Lauren (09:44)
Well, we can be selective. Once we understand how we can harness, like you know how I say, how we can join forces with our brain, then we can actually train, help train the attentional networks to help guide us back to focus.
Jiani (10:05)
How do we, how do we train the, the attention? There's an activity that you mentioned in the course, which I, I practice, which is like, find a space or look at something for, and try to keep our attention on that particular thing for 20 to 30 seconds, and then start doing whatever, you know, start learning or.
Lauren (10:28)
Mm.
Yeah.
Jiani (10:33)
what how was how why how
Lauren (10:37)
So while we are doing an activity like that, what's happening is that there's a release of specific neurochemistry. So, you know, we don't just like go from like zero to 100, right? It's not easy just to be like, I'm going to drop into focus right now, in this moment, like this second. So when we allow ourselves that little bit of a ramp, right? It's like when you're getting on the highway, you need like that little bit of momentum.
then we are getting we're actually helping our brain to get into a state based on the fact that we're releasing certain chemistry in there that's helping us to do that. So that's why those pauses of like 30 seconds up to a minute of just focusing on the screen or at the door or somewhere else is just allowing for us to a release the neurochemistry that's going to help. But it's also part of this whole bringing the executive function online.
which is our prefrontal cortex right here behind our forehead. So there's a lot of like, lots of bits and pieces and lots of chemistry going on inside of there to allow us to do these things. But the more that we can understand and the more that we can tap into it, the better we can join forces with our brains.
Jiani (11:40)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I love, I love where we're heading to. And so, and you mentioned about this like frontal lobe, a frontal cortex. when we do some kind of circling back to the mechanisms of, paying attention. So you just said it's a process of us prioritizing whether it's goal driven.
Ideally, it's goal driven, so we prioritize what information we decide to take in to our short -term memory so we can process. Is that because our frontal lobe is the one who play the major role in terms of prioritizing, evaluating, and selecting? In that process, do these kind of things work together side by side?
Lauren (12:40)
So it's very hard to say that one part of the brain does something without interacting with the rest of them. So we can say that we know that there's parts of the prefrontal cortex and the medial prefrontal cortex that do help with helping us to focus and governing attention. And there's inhibitory pathways between the prefrontal cortex, which is where our...
Jiani (12:49)
Mm -mm.
Lauren (13:05)
executive function lives. So when I say executive function, we're talking about things like our goals, our problem solving abilities, our abilities to focus, part of our behavior is governed in this area of the brain as well. So, but there are so many different pathways to this particular area of the well, all areas of the brain, but to this particular area of the brain, one in particular, which has an ability to sort of take it offline, is the amygdala, which is where the emotional processing centers of the brain are.
So when the emotional processing center is fired up, it almost cuts off access to our executive function. Not literally, doesn't literally cut it off, but it takes it offline. We go kind of offline. So in order to regain our focus, you would want to do some down regulation, which is going to tell that part of the brain, you know what?
There's not a tiger chasing us. We're safe. We're okay. Because we want to mitigate the stress response as well because too much stress. And once again, our executive function is offline. Little bit of stress when we're learning. We definitely want too much stress and we're taking the executive function offline, which means we have to find ways through breath, through a meditative practice, changing environment, getting up in order to refocus.
Jiani (14:04)
Hmm?
I see. So the, our stress level directly impact whether or not we're able to pay attention or able to focus. So when we're talking about, cause I, I, I was struggling kind of connect wellness and with like learning science. And now you're giving me this potential answer is the wellness piece is the one who helps us to not turn off our frontal lobe. So,
Lauren (14:38)
Absolutely.
Jiani (14:58)
all the energies or the focuses will come and help us to focus rather than dwelling in that emotional part of the brain and getting lost and getting the frontal lobe offline. So the wellness plays such an important role.
Lauren (15:11)
huge, huge. Yeah. But that's also that's, you know, when we talk about wellness as the whole and its impact on the brain, we're also talking about the food that we're eating. Are we well hydrated? Have we slept, slept enough and well, there's so many things that impact our abilities to, you know, really tune into our executive function and to learn. And all of that plays, plays, you know, a really great role. I know that for most people listening, if you're hungry, and you're sitting at your desk, and you start to realize that you're hungry,
It's hard to focus because all of a sudden you're like, I should get up and I should get something. And maybe you pass the point and you're like, what am I going to eat? I'm so hungry now that I'm going to sit here for another 20 minutes and try to figure out what I want to eat because I'm just, and I can't make a proper decision because now I'm too hungry. We've all been there. Snacks are huge. Yeah.
Jiani (16:01)
That's why snacks are important. Yeah, I've been there. Healthy snacks. Beautiful, beautiful. And you mentioned about a concept called schema. And schema was very important in kind of your explanation of how it helps us to organize information. So once our brand is able to sharply focus,
prioritize information, processing them, and the schema comes to help us actually turn those into memory. Can you explain a little bit more about what is schema and how does schema help in terms of attention and memory?
Lauren (16:42)
So schemas represent the way that our brains have organized certain things. So it could be a pattern of thought, it could be behavior, but it's really relationships between categories of things. And that's how, when we are learning, when we are little, we start to develop our schemas for very particular things. In the series and in talks, I like to give the example of...
you know, when a child is learning what a dog is versus a cat is, maybe they see something with four legs and fur and everything's a dog. They, you know, they could see a goat and it's a dog, but until they understand what are those differences, right? A dog, a dog is definitely not a goat. A dog lives in a house, a goat lives on a farm. You know, they make different noises. Their tails are different.
And that's how the schema is starting to grow. It's all that information that we know about something organized. And so when we are sort of learning and as we are learning and memory is we are filtering things through what we already know. So it could be through an existing schema. Now, sometimes that works well for us because we've got existing, excuse me, existing knowledge that we can build upon. But in large lab, for example, change initiatives and organizations.
sometimes that works against because typically the brain is going to revert back to what it's comfortable with and what it already knows. But if we are trying to modify a schema, if we're trying to modify information, that's when focus and drawing attention to how things are different becomes really important to create a new memory.
Jiani (18:23)
That's very interesting. A lot of times when we're thinking about change, the process of change, there's usually a default resistance to change. And even when people say, you know, it's disruptive and it does have some sort of like a willingness, like a tone of unwillingness, like, yeah, you know, it's kind of, kind of getting everybody's in a zone of uncomfort rather than comfort.
How do we make this process more enjoyable?
Lauren (18:59)
How do we make change more enjoyable? You know, it's we in a session that I was in yesterday, you know, this this kind of came up as a topic because then we started to come into the world of behavior, right? And how do we modify behavior? How do we how do we measure the modification of behavior? And I think in the learning world, especially in the professional organizational world, you know,
Jiani (19:05)
Enjoyable.
Lauren (19:29)
we're always thinking about what is the end goal? And we keep ourselves focused on that's the change that we're looking for without really sort of thinking about how long is that going to take to modify in a human brain and then see that transferred in performance in some sort of way? And then are we monitoring and measuring during the learning itself? Or are we just hoping that magically someone's going to
Jiani (19:53)
Mmm.
Lauren (19:56)
change their behavior and the way that they do things by the time they get to this, this, the end of the learning intervention. So doing something and understanding what is it that you're trying to modify? What is your, what is the measures? Like what are the first measures that you're looking at and how are you being incredibly intentional and focused during that process so that you don't get to the end and realize nothing changed, which means you really have to insert these checkpoints.
while somebody is learning so they can regulate and monitor that process and identify is this working for me? Am I performing differently? Am I thinking differently? Do I have a new habit that I've acquired because of this? And don't expect magic to happen right at the very end if you are not inserting these little checkpoints all throughout the whole process.
Jiani (20:50)
It's what we measure, then we are able to anchor and change. I would like to kind of circle back to one of the idea that you said, once we are able to help people to sharpen their focus on the differences between what is currently the schema versus what's potentially a newer schema. How, why would...
us paying attention to the difference help us to really facilitate change.
Lauren (21:22)
because otherwise the brain reverts back to what it already knows. Because we've got stronger, when we think about what a memory is in an actual human brain, in a memory being reactivated, it is a series of cells that are being activated in a particular pattern, in a particular order. And when we are first learning something, we don't just instantly create that pattern. We have to practice, we need to rehearse in order to strengthen.
that. So if you have one memory that represents what you already know, well that's going to be a lot stronger and faster than something that you're just learning. So it really comes down. Now we're going into the modification of the brain itself when we talk about, you know, learning. So, you know, what happens in the brain when we're developing a new skill.
what happens to the brain when we're trying to create a new memory. And there's a lot, there's a lot going on under there, right? Because it's not, and I think this is why it's been challenging for people to sort of want to adapt more of the sciences because it's such a vast topic. But when we think about, and what I encourage people to do is to look at learning from the inside out.
Jiani (22:18)
Yeah, there's...
Lauren (22:40)
not the outside, not the content that's coming in, but what's going on up here. And what does it actually take for a human brain to undergo the process of changing and modifying itself in order to create a memory that then represents a transferable, tangible skill or a behavior or a habit or an ability. That's what we really need to start looking at.
Jiani (23:03)
Yeah, that's why we, yeah. And so that reminds me of the, the, the video that you showed when we actually learned a skill, the, the neurons, the, actually the cell part actually grows more receptors to connect with other, to connect with the center part of another neural cells. And, and the,
Lauren (23:10)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Jiani (23:27)
the process looks so amazing. Like just see the receptors start to grow and grow and grow. And how, if we were to, this may be a very audacious question. If we were to,
Lauren (23:29)
Hehehe
Jiani (23:45)
accelerate the process of having more neurons to grow their receptors and to form new connecting patterns in our brain. Is there a way for us to do that? Will enhancing our attention help? Will focus on the difference help?
Lauren (23:47)
Hmm.
There's no fast way around this. And so contrary to popular belief, so what you've just also referred to is something called neurogenesis. And neurogenesis is our ability to grow new brain cells. And it does not happen as frequently or as densely as once believed. So, you know, there's nobody who I know or who I work with in the science world who will tell you that.
that this is a fast process, that learning and memory is a very fast process, because it's just not, and we have to be a little bit more patient. And I think, as you saw, when you can witness what is actually happening in your brain, in any brain, when it is trying to grow a new set of these dendrites in order to create.
what's an experience in the brain, like physical parts of the brain and the modifications that have to happen. That's when we start to sort of change and level set things because for as many of the thousands of those tree branch like structures, there are trillions, trillions of synapses, which are also undergoing changes during learning. Yeah, and so those synapses are like, it's so...
Jiani (25:24)
Mm.
Lauren (25:26)
so, so, so, so, so, so tiny, hence, like, we've got trillions of them, but this is how the cells are communicating with one another, and through, like, these chemical and electrical signals. And when you think of how, when you see it, I think, as you did, and see what it takes to modify some of these things, and you can see the time scales in some of the live MRIs, you see, unfortunately, we can rehearse more, and we can practice more.
But one of the most critical elements to forming a memory is rest and sleep. Because the consolidation process is happening during rest, deep rest or sleep. So if we know that, and we do with certainty, we know that memory is consolidated during those times, then it's very unrealistic for us to think that we could speed up the process somehow in a human brain if we're not following the rules of it.
Jiani (26:23)
So it really takes time and not only time, but also proper rest. So the body can take its time to grow the receptors to kind of build more neural networks that's actually connected. Also, you mentioned about the stress level. So we always need to keep our stress level in that sweet spot, not too overwhelming, not too boring.
Lauren (26:29)
Mm -hmm.
Jiani (26:52)
but in that like just just right state to help us focus, practice, and then let the time be our friend and help us grow those new cells. Beautiful.
Lauren (27:05)
It's the equivalent of people who think that they can go to the gym for two days and come out with like a set of abs, you know, great, great biceps. And, you know, it's, if we can, if we can wrap our heads around that understanding, no, I can't go to the gym and in 24 hours be like absolutely ripped, then we should be able to understand that your brain doesn't change that quickly either. It's constantly modifying, but in order to physically.
create a memory in a human brain, it's going to take a little bit more time than 24 hours or an hour long e -learning module or three hours at a half day workshop. It's just, that's the process. And this is, I think, what we're really missing in the field of learning.
Jiani (27:48)
Is there, I may still push the question a little bit further. Is there a sort of like an average or a medium time that based on research that's shown in order to form the new connectors or form a new neural network, the average time is about maybe 30 days or 60 days is your standard, like an average, like, like,
Lauren (27:53)
Yeah.
There's no standard, there's no average and the research that does have sort of time variables associated with it, I would have to pull it directly to see where it was from, but it was based on stroke victims and how the networks were reconnecting or how they were, someone's rehabilitation process was being monitored through functional or MRI. So.
I would, I don't think any of us would be like, yes, it takes this much time exactly to do that. And even in the behavioral sciences, you know, there was for a long time, there was these numbers floating around of like, it takes 45 to 60 repetitions or something like that. And we can't quantify it. We just can't quantify it because we're all different.
Jiani (29:01)
highly personalized. Yeah. Okay. Good to know everyone.
Lauren (29:04)
We have the same part. We've got, we've all got the same parts up there, but they're all wired differently. So you might have a schema for something that I don't, which means I'm starting from scratch, but you've got something to build on.
Jiani (29:10)
Hmm.
yeah, so it's actually based on a major variable is how many relevant schemas that you already have that you can use to build toward the new patterns. If you don't have a lot of schema to build upon, yeah, you probably will need more time. But if you already have some, maybe your time can be a little bit shortened. Cool.
Lauren (29:28)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Jiani (29:42)
So the next question is about like the curiosity and childlike wonder. So maybe that taps into like a motivation. So what do you think is like the childlike wonder that we have as adults or do we still have them? Is this or imaginary? I do too. So it's real.
Lauren (30:03)
I do.
You know, I think that's always really, that's like a really hard question to answer because, you know, we all grew up differently. And some people maybe didn't have the, you know, a childhood that allowed them to be a child. So it's really hard to say, you know, with certainty, you know, what role does childlike wonder play? But I think where we can have a discussion is around.
curiosity and it's around novelty. We were talking about this yesterday again in the session because people were asking about curiosity. And, you know, could you could you train somebody could somebody learn curiosity. And there was I think there was evidence or there wasn't any evidence Excuse me. There was a scientist, a cognitive scientist, Elizabeth Bonowitz.
who I quoted and she was like, there is no scientific evidence that you can foster curiosity as a trait. And that was in her, I believe, I'm not sure if it was her studies, but it was studies in children. So when it comes to us as adults, though, where I think that we've got, where we sort of can sort of stimulate a little bit of that childlike wonder is through novelty, because the brain loves novelty. And the cool thing about, you know, how we know that is that when you're when they were doing that neuroimaging,
and neuroimaging is going to measure electricity that the brain cells are using to communicate with one another. It shows that your brains are responding stronger to things that you've never experienced before. So, you know, there was a Dr. Dr. Moreno, Dr. Sylvia Moreno, who I think their research showed that it was as much as three to five times stronger that these cells were responding to things that we've never seen before. So it's.
cool that we can learn about novelty and learn how to use novelty when we're learning so that we can insert things that are sort of whimsical and like allow us to chase our curiosity a little bit. But at the same time, going back to those attentional networks, we're stimulating the attentional network to something that's new and something that might be unexpected. So we're really working within the beauty of the brain system when we use that novelty and the attentional networks to come together.
Jiani (32:21)
Yeah.
Beautiful that that kind of resonate with the power where we feel the all like we're so my god, you know, it's just Think about that. my god. Is that possible? Wow That's amazing. Yeah, I that actually ties into my next question is with all the kind of new development Especially on the technology we have like artificial intelligence gene AI
Lauren (32:35)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yup.
Jiani (32:55)
Now we have extended reality, virtual reality, and we have like web three and all that, but like extended reality and artificial intelligence. Do you think those two technologies when leveraged well with a well -educated approach, can these technologies help us to kind of cultivate micro moments of novelty?
that can potentially help us better pay attention and help us to have more kind of stronger connections or you know, electricity is that communications in our brain.
Lauren (33:32)
I wouldn't say stronger and I say in the stage that we're in right now, I think that anything is possible. We can use the models that we've got right now in order to train them to teach them to how do we insert novelties or these moments of curiosity and whatnot. But the scientist in me is going to say until we have more empirical evidence.
that these are actually working to transfer into human capability, then it's really hard to say. Until more studies are done, until we have more data, until we have more research, to say absolutely certain CES, it just doesn't sit well.
Jiani (34:15)
So it's a possibility and then it's still a lot of variables that we need to rule on. That's beautiful. And a couple of years. Yes. Be patient. More data. Yes. Be patient. We are living in this world of like, can we do it next? can we have it next? Like everybody just like so like fast paced and just wanted to get there like next, next minute.
Lauren (34:16)
Yeah, everything's a possibility. Yeah. Give it a couple of years. Give it a couple of years. More research, more studies, more data. Yes.
Yeah, we have Amazon syndrome. We've got next day. Next day hoarders. That's not a thing, by the way. I just made that up.
Jiani (34:44)
yeah. Yes. So we're. So we actually need to do the opposite. We need to cultivate, patients and take time and allow our body to do its magic and develop the neural cells and, and connectors and let the electricity communication take time to communicate. And, nevertheless, the most important thing is to pay attention.
Lauren (35:03)
Hehehehe
Jiani (35:10)
So be the, be in the present, pay attention and use anything that you can to help you to pay attention, pay good quality attention. So that's kind of, we're circling back to the, to the starting point. That's great. Any particular risks, challenges or things of caution that we need to have as we kind of move into the future. when we were talking about like neuroscience and all the.
Lauren (35:22)
Hmm.
Jiani (35:38)
development in technologies and things like that. In addition to like patient and wait for the data, anything that of caution that we need to know.
Lauren (35:48)
I think that especially for my learning, my learning professionals and my educators and my teachers, you know, I think that the word of caution is always be very careful as to who you're getting your information from. And I think that's that that sort of is, you know, for everything that we do right now is you've got to be a little bit more discerning because we've historically had to fight against, you know, myth that came and that was perpetuated from sometimes our own.
But I think that's the word of caution is there are a lot of people out there who have a great passion and a great interest in the brain and in neuroscience and learning sciences, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're translating it accurately. And when we're not translating it accurately, then we're falsifying information and we definitely don't want that. So the word of caution is be a little bit more discerning with who you're getting your information from and where you're getting it from because, you know,
chat GPT doesn't know it all. And it's still making mistakes. But we don't know it all either. And I think a good scientist will be humble enough to stay in their lane and to say, you know, I actually can't speak to that. You know, before, while you and I were prepping to have our session here, you gave me some questions and I said to you, I said, I can't speak to that. So as long as we're humble enough to know what we know and know what we don't know, I think we're gonna be in a good place.
Jiani (36:48)
hahahaha
Yeah, that's also part of the metacognition. Like what I think I do know, I actually know it and I know it well. What I think I actually don't know, yes, I actually don't know. So beautiful. So before we move to the magic part of the conversation, I would like to give a brief recap for our audience out there.
Lauren (37:19)
Mm.
Yeah.
Jiani (37:40)
So we've talked about Lauren's story, her funny story of learning pirate and in the mission and the vision behind this brand. And we also talked about the importance of attention and we explore the neural mechanics behind or mechanisms behind when, you know, when we're actually paying attention, what really happens. And we talked about the importance of change and how schema is able to
plays a critical role in terms of helping us to identify the differences between the old schema versus the schema that we're developing into and bringing attention as our friend, help us to hopefully transition between now into the future, embrace change with joy and with attention and with readiness. And we also looked into the future of technologies and how that may or may not help us.
when we were thinking about developing and cultivating a learning environment and a learning space for our folks. And we also talked about some potential cautions, especially on the literacy piece, we need to be more cautious about where we get the information from and admit when we know something and when we don't know something. Beautiful. So magic. So Lauren, when you were 11 years old,
What did Lauren enjoy creating or playing that time just disappeared?
Lauren (39:13)
Let me think. I was a musician from a very young age. So I was, you probably could not have pulled me away from the piano at that point. Cause that's where I wanted to spend all of my time was making and creating music. So 11 year old Lauren was doing that. And she's, I think she's still with me, but I mean, I'm such a curious human being.
So when I wasn't playing the piano or doing something that had to do with music, I was probably going somewhere that I shouldn't have gone. Just to see what was there.
Jiani (39:54)
explorer at heart the pirate I love it I love it I think the music has I was reading a book called your brain on our arts and it's talking about the healing power the transcending power of music it's just it's something about this the sound
Lauren (39:53)
Yes, the pirate from a young age.
Jiani (40:14)
that the wavelengths that we, we listen to the music and even we play the music, something is, is happening. That that's even their own kind of domain. we can, you know, wait it to be explored. any, any particular challenges that you personally have to go through and that helped to shape who you are as of now today.
Lauren (40:21)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
I think if we look in the more recent years, the challenges were learning about my own brain. That was a challenge. When you don't know about this thing and that's the challenge of learning. Learning about my own brain was definitely a challenge. Being a translator to all of the sciences is always a challenge because that means I'm constantly in a state of learning myself. But I think the real challenge is,
trying to get everybody else on board with this. And the irony to that is that it's the brains of everyone else, like we were saying, they believed something and their habits and the behaviors towards this topic of learning has been cultivated over several, several decades that those neural networks are so strong. They're holding on to the old.
And that's definitely a challenge. But if we want to move forward, if we want to see the evolution, if we want to advance as human beings, as fundamental human beings, then we have to sort of embrace the challenge. And that's something that I had to learn. And I'm hoping that, you know, everybody else will kind of get on the pirate ship with me and join the crew.
Jiani (41:57)
Yeah. Yeah. I think chain, I joined the crew and I enjoy the change because personally, like from my personal experience, you know, even though this podcast is, is, built to awaken people's wonder, curiosity, and, solicit or facilitate like change transcendence when it comes to my own kind of change. And it's a work. It's a
Lauren (42:03)
Hmm.
Jiani (42:22)
I can still see that, Jiani, you've been holding this schema for so tight and so strong. And whenever it's time for you to go out of that, the fear, stress, things that just automatically come to you. And you have to first deal with that and then change the internal narrative and help myself to see the change as great as, you know, because nothing is permanent except to change. And it's just, it's just...
Lauren (42:37)
Mm.
Yeah.
Jiani (42:51)
And the rates for change nowadays is accelerating exponentially. So we have to take uncertainty as fuel for us to change and transcend and actually thrive on the uncertainties and turn stress and fear into joy and excitement and hop on the board to explore new land, new waters. And it's constant work.
Lauren (42:57)
Hmm.
Jiani (43:18)
and it's like, it's self -rustling.
Lauren (43:18)
But aren't you so happy though that you know more now? See, this is what makes it a little bit easier. When we understand why our operational system works the way it does and how we can work with it, it makes those moments of change and uncertainty just a little bit easier to get through when we just understand how us magical humans actually operate.
Jiani (43:41)
Yes, yes, we all have magic inside of us and it evolves as we evolve. So what is your magic? As of now, for now.
Lauren (43:54)
Hahaha!
You know, I think that my magic and I learned this sort of like over the years is I just have this genuine curiosity about people. And I think my magic is just being able to connect with that and connect with them and them allowing me to participate with them.
So I think that's my magic is I am very humbled and grateful every day by those who allow me to interact with their brains and allow me to guide them on the journey to joining forces with them.
Jiani (44:38)
it. And I enjoyed this journey with you. It's just getting started to let my brain interact with your brain and learn from what you've learned and rely on your magic and your translation of what's being done in the in the space of research in specifically in neuroscience. It's not such a like tough tough
Lauren (44:43)
Yeah.
Jiani (45:04)
for people to wrap our mind around and and thank you so much for doing hard work. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And thank you so much, Lauren, for sharing your wisdom, your knowledge and your vision and your passion and your curiosity and your presence with us today.
Lauren (45:04)
Hmm.
Yeah, well that's why I'm here so that you don't have to.
My pleasure.
Jiani (45:30)
I hope our audience enjoyed our conversation. And if you wanted to get in touch with her or hop on board to learn about how can we join forces with our brand as we cultivate learning spaces or skill development spaces, whether it's for developing a new skill or facilitate cultural, micro, macro cultural change within or outside of the organizations that you're in.
Whether it's a leadership, you name it. It's all working alongside with our brain. So information is in the show notes. So definitely we encourage you to get connected and hop on board. Thank you so much, Lauren.
Lauren (46:12)
Yar. Yar. Thanks so much, Jiani
