Physiological Diversity: An Inclusive Dimension to Manage Stress & Productivity
📑 Chapters
00:33 - Kirill introduces himself
01:40 - About CleverPoint & its foundation
03:44 - Measuring stress, calmness & productivity
10:53 - The healthy dose of stress
14:10 - Early signs of burnout
16:53 - First hand stories about stress from Kirill
20:28 - Evolving the way in which we handle stress
23:54 - Advices for leaders
26:50 - Accuracy of the data
30:40 - Vision on the future by Kirill
32:29 - Potential risks for physiological studies
33:41 - Thought leaders to follow
34:56 - Jiani’s recap of the episode
37:16 - Kirill at 11 years old
39:23 - Particular challenges for Kirill
40:07 - Kirill’s magic
Watch the full episode here.
💕 Story Overview
Welcome to S4E12 of the @MAGICademy Podcast, where we’re joined by Kirill Krasnogir as our guest this week. Kirill is an entrepreneur and the founder of CleverPoint, a company specializing in neurotechnology and virtual reality applications for mental health assessment. We talk a lot about CleverPoint; stress, burnout and how these two concepts influence our professional and personal lives; and how productivity can be improved through the power of will and hard work.
Kirill´s vision is to leverage technology to improve mental health outcomes, making significant strides in how psychological well-being can be assessed and supported by using advanced tools. In this episode we also talk about these advanced tools, analyze some of his stories about mental health and managing stress in the workplace, and how stress doesn’t affect us all the same, but we can still find ways to manage it
🌼 Magical Insights
People Relate to Stress in a Different Way: For some people, working under stressful conditions is simply not good for them. They get stuck or delayed, they could potentially fall into burnout, etc. But for others, they need some level of stress in order to be efficient, as it becomes a motivator for them. For companies to be productive, it’s a good idea to identify the tasks and workers that could go along together, and focus on developing talents according to this. A person can be extremely competent but if they´re placed in an stressful or demanding environment without proper feedback and followup, they can fall into burnout and not be able to influence positively on the company.
Some People Aren’t Aware of the Effects of Stress: In the modern business world, it’s very hard to separate our professional from our free time: the presence of smartphones, laptops and other technological devices makes it hard to truly disconnect from work, especially for freelance/home-office practitioners. This makes it very hard for us to be aware of the effects of stress and overstimulation in our lives, as we’re always switched-on. Being able to recognize stress and do something about it (through meditation, therapy, or anything that allows the person to mentally rest) is key for a successful professional life without risk of burnout.
Different Ways to Deal with Stress: The same way stress hits different for everybody, we all have different ways to manage it and be productive. It’s important for talents to be honest with themselves and figure out how to be calm and how to minimize as much stress as they can on their own, as just breathing doesn’t work for everybody. And it’s important for companies to be able to adapt and be as flexible as possible with talented workers, especially for roles or positions with an stressful environment (jobs with several meetings per day or travels per week, liaison between departments, long-hour shifts, etc.)
Practice Makes Perfection: Practicing stressful situations or scenarios can help the talent figure out ways to manage with these type of situations, or at least increase their tolerance to those negative stimuli. Taking the time to properly educate and train the worker will save time and money that would otherwise be spent once the talent burns out and leaves the company.
⭐ What’s Kirill’s Magic?
The desire and passion to help people. He believes that helping others is like a boomerang and doing good deeds can only bring good to our lives.
Conclusion
In conclusion, we explored the ways stress impacts individuals differently and the importance of tailored approaches to mental well-being. Kirill's commitment to leveraging technology for better mental health outcomes serves as a reminder that, with determination and creativity, we can tackle some of the most pressing challenges in our personal and professional lives.
Applying Kirill’s insights on stress and burnout to our daily routines can significantly enhance our mental well-being and productivity, leading to a more wholesome professional life and keeping the risk of burnout to a minimum.
If you would like to stay tuned with our future guests and their magical stories. Welcome to join us.
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Cellini, N., Grondin, S., Stablum, F., Sarlo, M., & Mioni, G. (2023). Psychophysiological stress influences temporal accuracy. Experimental Brain Research, 241, 2229 - 2240.
Bhoja, R., Guttman, O.T., Fox, A.A., Melikman, E., Kosemund, M., & Gingrich, K.J. (2020). Psychophysiological Stress Indicators of Heart Rate Variability and Electrodermal Activity With Application in Healthcare Simulation Research. Simulation in Healthcare: The Journal of the Society for Simulation in Healthcare.
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Kirill Krasnogir is the founder and CEO of CleverPoint, a company that integrates virtual reality (VR) with advanced physiological sensors to assess and enhance mental health. He actively promotes the integration of neurotechnology in educational settings to equip students with tools for better mental health awareness.
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Jiani (00:08)
Welcome to MAGICademy Podcast Today with us is Kirill the founder of CleverPoint, a smart device that measures your physiological state and advocate for physiological diversity. We've heard about diversity in a very traditional term, but physiological diversity is something very, very interesting and so curious to learn about that. So welcome Kirill to the podcast.
Kirill (00:14)
Hey.
Nice to meet you and thanks for such an opportunity to be here.
Jiani (00:38)
Thank you for sharing your time and wisdom with us. So if we were to learn about you or get to know you for the first time, and how would you introduce yourself in a way that no one has heard about yet?
Kirill (01:02)
In my past, I was a jazz musician and I loved jazz improvisation. And this played a crucial role, I believe, in my development. Because being flexible, being able to hear and to listen to other people, not to being afraid to step outside the classical boundaries, everything like in real business. I...
loving husband and father of two harming children and a loyal business partner.
Jiani (01:38)
I love that. I love how you transfer the music, the way that we play music into the way that we conduct life and business and beyond. It's beautiful.
Kirill (01:40)
Thank you.
Yep, our life is like improvisation. So let's try play the jazz right now.
Jiani (01:56)
Yes, yes. So we may be very, very curious, like clever point. And can you share with us like what exactly does clever point do and why did you build it? Like what's a funding story behind this initiative?
Kirill (02:18)
Okay. You know, in my native language, the word for clever means clover and the fifth leaf of the clover is magical and we are the fifth leaf and clever point. What is, what is clever point is the typically typical headsets, which we equip with our face mask and with dry electrodes.
And this small box, one of the brain of our technology, because the second brain is our algorithms, which allows us to record the electrical activity of the brain, the activity of the cardiovascular system and autonomic nervous system. In simple words, we work with heart and brain activity. And based on this data, we understand a lot.
about your real physiological state. Today, we are able to recognize more than nine functional states from severe fatigue to stress and hyper stress and anxiety. And, you know, when we developed this technology, we saw a lot of fields for applications like from neuro marketing, gaming, rehabilitation, and so on and so forth. But we very close to...
medicine because my business partner, he's a PhD in medicine. in our team, works, work people from, from neurophysiology, psychotherapy. So that's why we decided that, we must bring value in, in the health, yeah, in mental health. and this is like a basis of our technology and our solutions, with, we try to help.
Jiani (04:06)
Hmm.
Kirill (04:15)
people, how to conquer stress, how to avoid burnout, or even how to recognize and to get to know yourself better through the prism of your physiological data.
Jiani (04:33)
That is a many dimensional concept right there. And I like how a simple technology like that is able to kind of trace our ability and to the connection between our brain and our mind. And when you're thinking about, when you're talking about like stress, anxiety,
in our initial conversation, you were talking about that kind of the perfect flow zone where it's not too, we're not too anxious. we are, we have a healthy level of stress and then we have a healthy level of calm. And then that's kind of the sweet spot. Can you share with us a little bit more like how, we're not going too much into the technical details. How.
How do you measure that? Like how do you say, this person is under tremendous stress versus this person is like too calm and not being very productive per se. So how do you...
Kirill (05:34)
yeah. Can I share my screen?
Jiani (05:40)
I think s -
Probably not. yeah, you can share actually. Yeah, you can share. Let's try. It's actually our first time sharing the screens.
Kirill (05:45)
Not okay. Let's I can share. Okay. Let's
Aha, let's test it.
Jiani (05:57)
Yes. Yes.
Kirill (05:59)
The same screen.
Super. What we are doing in virtual reality, we provide a set of tests. This tests are very simple and this is what you can observe in the right corner. Yeah. This is what the user is doing. This tests are very easy and even kids like 12 or 15 years old can pass it through. But during this exercise we
measure physiological responses, what you can observe from the left. Yeah, like a brain activity, electromyography data and cardio, Grammins and so forth. And upon completion, 20, 25-minute test, it's very short period of time. The system automatically generate a report and this report is like a mirror, to your, to your state.
Because based on this data, report is a bit huge, like 23, 25 pages. But through the prism of this data, we understand your strengths and risk and development areas. We provide some recommendations; what kind of trainees are suitable to you to improve your physiological or cognitive parameters. But what is more important, we understand your stress resistance.
And here I would like to stress your attention to this chart. All these dots which you can observe here are people. But each zone is very important on this chart. For instance, people who are lying in this range, they are candidates for future burnout.
Why? Because they activate their physiology in an adequate manner. And this is a topic for them. But what is more important, people who learn here, for instance, for them, the stress is a fuel of their efficiency. But for these people, stress is very risky because they become a bit frozen or not so smart. But in real life, they're smart. But under the stress,
under the pressure of stress. They make mistakes, delays, and so on and so forth. Here we see people who practically already on 90 % burnout. Why? Because these people don't care what will be inside of VR in the report or afterwards. And we see some kind of anomaly in their cardio activity. And many, many other zones, for instance here,
Jiani (08:32)
Hmm.
Kirill (08:54)
people with ADD issues like attention to disorder. But what is more important when we understand who you are and where you are located in this chart, we can understand how to communicate and operate with you. And this is what we call called physiological diversity because look how all these dots of people are spreaded within this chart.
means that from physiology point of view, we are all entirely different and at the same task we react absolutely in different manner. And question is, if we can recognize it, we can understand how to improve the communication with you, how to improve the efficiency or work with you. Keeping in mind your abilities and your specific abilities.
And this is a way for empathy development, emotional, intelligent development, leadership development, yeah? Because people understand and accept not only similarities, but also differences between two choices.
Jiani (10:09)
And I was looking at this chart. Can we go up a little bit? Yeah. And I'm seeing like a lot of dots are actually when the stress level is a little bit high and then always like it. So yeah, so the work efficiency when they're really high. Yeah. So like kind of when there is a healthy level of stress level, maybe around like four.
Kirill (10:21)
Yes.
Jiani (10:39)
or five. That's where I see mostly kind of the high efficiency is like high efficiency around like
Kirill (10:46)
I can explain you, you know, two years ago we used, sorry, two years ago we used, two years ago we used not our statistical data, but today when the solution already passed more than around 2 ,000 managers and employees, we see our own statistics. And this statistics is very terrible. More than 50 % of the
23 % of people are at risk of burnout. From them, more than 26%, those people who, where stress is influencing on their productivity, like they're smart, they're effective, but they're very stressful. And unfortunately, the problematic is that people...
have absolutely low awareness about the relationship between the physiology and their behavior. This is a simple example, different states within the test, and this person, for instance, absolutely stressful. This person is not able even to switch him off. And unfortunately, 90 % of people...
have more or less the same picture. They are not able to switch them off even when they have free time. Today's modern world, today's working activities, challenges, private life and business life, everything creates some kind of pressure. And our brain every time is working even when we have free time.
And this is what we want to show people that look right now you let's example 30. Yeah, but you absolutely stressful. You are not able to relax you You align somewhere here in the red red zone Question is very simple. What will be in five years? Yeah because Not stable yeah because our body
Jiani (13:00)
So it's not sustainable.
Kirill (13:06)
erect on stress, erects on stress, absolutely in different manner. On the one hand, you know, definitely let's say we'll let's say we'll stop stop.
Jiani (13:16)
and
Kirill (13:22)
But you know Jiani in one hand stress is important for our life because sex, children, everything what is very nice, our happiness, it's also like a stress and this is good. Without stress no life, yeah. But question regarding the negative stress and how to recognize it and how to control and manage the stress.
Jiani (13:22)
Mm.
Kirill (13:50)
This is a topic for us, to us.
Jiani (13:53)
I really appreciate that you kind of like showing us the visually so we actually understand what you know, what are some parameters right there. And you mentioned about people who are high stress, while also have high productivity, those type of people will produce a lot of things and feel productive even in a very short like in short term, maybe one one to two.
five years, I think even five years is a little bit too long. And then they will go to a point where the stress starts to kind of negatively impact their, productivity per se. And then what would be like from a systematic perspective, how do we, in that chart, where would we locate ideally? so we can.
work more sustainably with a healthy dose of stress.
Kirill (14:53)
You know, no such point. Each person is absolutely unique. Yeah. But question is if I'm really stressful and because you know, many people think that, okay, I'm stressful, but for people is just like a source. Yeah. But when they meet with themselves through the prism of the data, question is, okay, I believe in it. Yeah. I must accept it.
Jiani (14:55)
No such point. Okay.
Kirill (15:23)
and question what the next what can I improve? Yeah. And how can I change myself? For instance, if, if you wish, if not, no problem. You can, you can forget about this report or data or whatever. And the topic is how to, because each person is unique. Yeah. And everybody has absolutely unique abilities. Yeah.
in different spheres and we can be absolutely stressful but very effective what question is that if I'm a stressful and How long I can be effective? Yeah, and Topic is that someday I will come to my employer and say that look I'm tired I Must to go. Yeah, and for business. This is a problematic because the replacement cost
Jiani (16:03)
Bye.
Kirill (16:20)
is really huge, specifically when we are talking about our goodwill, about people, managers or experts or specialists who really bring a lot of value for the companies. Me personally, I burn out twice. One time when I worked for a huge IT company and was like a strategic account manager.
And the second time when I was a founder for my previous business. And I know what burnout brings me, my family, my career, and people who surrounded me. And because it's really costly story. And just imagine, based on our statistic, 53 % managers are at risk of burnout.
Now just imagine the cost to your organization if half of your managers burn out.
This rhetorical question, yeah?
Jiani (17:28)
Hmm.
Kirill (17:30)
But not everything is so dramatic. We just must to inform and to show and then step how to avoid and how to improve yourself based on this data. And we have also a lot of stories.
Jiani (17:43)
And is there a longitudinal study where for folks who are high performing and high stress, how do they know, like, do they have to do that several times to understand how long it takes them to kind of go toward like...
Kirill (18:10)
I do too. Yeah.
Jiani (18:11)
too much stress where the productivity is hurting, like burning out. Is there any early signals that you can see that they need to start to be aware? And that particular point can be that point of change.
Kirill (18:26)
Good news that you can improve your physiology. It's a time-consuming process and it will take time because your cognition, your cognitive parameters, you can improve within probably three, five, six months, yeah, any parameter. But when we're talking about the physiology, physiology also might be improved but for a bit longer period of time.
Jiani (18:34)
Okay.
Kirill (18:56)
like within a year or within one and a half year, it depends on your desire to change, but it's really possible. And the solution which we use, this like a periodical testing because you can check your improvement every time, yeah, to see what is your condition right now. Moreover, we have a lot of users,
let's call it clients who checks themselves periodically. Why? Because they want to understand different functional states for different period of time. For instance, at the beginning of week, in the end of week, after the two weeks of hard job or after the nightclub. Yeah. And a lot of alcohol, how the, how it's reflecting on them.
It depends on your desire. Yeah. And, but when you know yourself, in different typical life situations, it's given, give people ability to understand how manage their behavior in this situation. And let's call it like, even mindfulness development, because if I know,
Already or here my signals of my body and I know that in this that moment I will be not so productive for me this signal that are probably I Don't I will not to Make I will not to make it decisions right now. Yeah, but probably later Yes, yes. Yes, or probably I need to do it a bit later when I will recover. Yeah, or probably I
Jiani (20:42)
Because I am in the verge of burning out or I'm in a high stress, low performance.
Kirill (20:53)
We know all our team through the prism of the data and we understand how to communicate and to each other and this is what we call real well -being because no any kind of free cakes or free lunches or some kind of free perks which corporates invest to the people not create real well -being.
only when we understand to each other and accept to each other.
Jiani (21:28)
I love that. And I think it's the ability for us to develop transparency and awareness of where our psychological state is and as how does that relate or impact our performance at our work situation and have each other be aware and be respect and give space to each other and communicate in a way that would help. And I will be curious, within your team, I would suppose that everybody's using this and...
How would they, how would the manager manage and how would the talent kind of communicate with each other and with manager and collaborate? And can you kind of give us some stories or examples so we can help to further contextualize this?
Kirill (22:14)
We have a lot of stories not only our own but clients stories and one of the story one of the story one of the top managers decided to check himself with our solution and he found that he's really very stressful, but what is more important stress Influenced on his cognition. So under the stress his
cognitive parameters was very low and efficiency was very shifted to the low zone because of stress. Yeah. And, within, within one year he tried to change himself and he did it. He did it, with the help of a psychotherapist with own mental health practice, like a breathing and so on and so forth. But, by the way, breathing techniques, is very helpful and useful, but not for everybody.
specifically for people who are really stressful and really productive for them breathing Doesn't work for them more Effective way to have a some kind of sport or sex or whatever But to burn their stress and only after that they can already breathe it. Yeah, but let's come back to this Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I
Jiani (23:35)
so like jogging, swimming, competitive sports, or DJing some people.
Kirill (23:41)
Exactly, exactly. But coming back to this story with his top manager, the good point was that he was really proud that he did it. But what is more important, he mentioned that, I understand right now that my team is absolutely different and I can adjust communication based on the physiology data.
and he become to use it for their team. Because, you know, very often I hear, I heard in my past or even right now somewhere, very often I hear that, hmm, stupid employee, you're not able to do this or that. No, probably it's not simply stupid, but probably you, dear manager, a bit.
Not stupid, but you have not enough empathy to recognize that under your pressure under your behavior under your words or whatever you Prove you Jump into the stress of this person and right now under the stress this employee and not a is not able to process in classical Moneer because he is under the pressure and
based on his mind, his cardio activity, his nervous system and so on and so forth. But we can recognize it. We understand who you are. Moreover, we understand not only whether you're stressful or not, but what is your nervous system? What tasks are more suitable to you, short term or long term? Do you need a rest between your...
tasks or not. What is the duration of this rest? Because for some people it's enough two minutes to recover after the stress. For another people half an hour is not enough to recover after the stress because of their physiological constitution. Question, is it really valuable to know it if we want to create a powerful team or to reach or cover our challenges?
We believe that yes.
Jiani (26:06)
And do people's, so that's almost like when you're talking about that, I'm always kind of visualizing like a physiological diversity report card, something like that, like just kind of like a profile, exactly answering all your questions that you proposed through the data. Then my question is, will that change over time? I think will people tend to...
manage stress and they tend to like strive on stress and well for a period of time change and maybe as time goes by they may not be able to handle stress as well and then the time between peak performance and burnout is getting shorter and shorter. Is there something like that? Like there's like there's different levels like people and people are different and people now and people in the future may also be different. Were there?
Kirill (27:02)
Yeah, but you know, there are two choices from my perspective. First of all, to get to know yourself and be acquainted with your stress, yeah, somehow. Or second point, probably to change your approach in your work. Because if I'm a stressful guy, yeah, but this is my lifestyle.
Lifestyle and business and whatever and I must be in some kind of for such mode Yeah, the question is I have no time to change myself probably but I can change my schedule I can change my approach to life probably I know Not transfer answer to males after 6 p Yeah, or probably
switch your phone off after 7 p or not to set up 10 meetings per day, but only three or four because based on Pareto only 20 % brings value then the rest 80%. Something like this is also a topic of choice. But definitely if you are able to recognize the signals of your body,
It's helpful for you personally and for your business life, for instance. Me personally, today I know what is my breathing rate because based on our technology, we can understand the specific breathing rate of each person. And I trained, I already trained and I can reproduce my breathing rate. I mean, duration of inhale and exhale, which,
Jiani (28:32)
Mm.
Kirill (28:53)
activate my parasympathetic system responsible for relaxation. And I use this technique everywhere, within the negotiations, within the sales period, or even right now when we are talking with the screen. And it helped me be more calm, more relaxed, and my brain can work more effectively in this moment.
Something like this.
Jiani (29:24)
I like that. So schedule, change the schedule and also adapt your rate of breathing individually and in a micro moment. It doesn't have to be like this like big endeavor of that can be very micro and in the flow of work in the flow of life as we go through.
Kirill (29:41)
Yeah, small tips, for instance, have you ever could have you have you ever saw that you can count your pulse? Like you can feel your pulse somewhere here. No, without even without any kind of touching. But you're just sitting and you can hear your heart. You can you can count your pulse if you heard if you've been in such situations. Not right now, but.
For instance, in your past, if you can count your pulse without any kind of measurements, just you can, you can feel it. Yeah. Somewhere here, here, here, or probably somewhere here in the stomach or some, it means you have already stress because, in your task to calm, calm you down at this moment, this like a small, tips, how to very quickly recognize.
Jiani (30:17)
yeah. Here, here -
Kirill (30:39)
the stress.
Jiani (30:40)
I love that. And how would, as team leaders, no matter whether how small or how big the team that you lead, what would be your suggestions for them in terms of informed leadership, you know, physiological diversity informed the leadership and how, you know, how would you recommend them to lead the team with such an insight?
Kirill (31:04)
You know, today, unfortunately, we every minute, every second are running, running in our business, in our challenges. We just moving, moving, moving, moving. Yeah. And we, first of all, we forget about people who surrounding us. Yeah. Like our team or because of, because of KPIs, because of goals and because of everything, but.
We forget about ourselves that we must have some kind of a balance. Yeah. Because question how long we will, how, how, how long our body will support us because you remember, I showed you this chart and show this people who are under the risk of burnout. Yeah. Question is very simple. Just imagine that you drive a car on the second gear.
but your speed 100 kilometers on the second gear question. How long your engine, your car engine will support you. Yeah. This, the same as our body, we can be healthy, effective, like a fire and go forward. But one day something will broken in our body and we can get anxiety, depression.
I don't know, stroke or something else because our organism is very difficult to and influence can be absolutely in different places here. Topic to be ready and probably to get ready for stress and how to manage and control such a situation.
And this is also helpful for you, for your life.
Jiani (33:06)
I think as I'm kind of listening and reflecting, I think that one of the simplest thing that we can do is just to communicate your current state and preempt. Like, I think I'm at the verge of burning out and I need a little bit more rest. Or the manager can say, yeah, I see that you are on the verge of burning out. Let's just take it slow. Let's adapt, like you mentioned, adapt your schedule. And instead of 10 meetings, let's do
go to three or let's maybe take a few days off and do some exercise based on whatever heals you. And then in this way, as long as people are aware and at least they start conversations in this way, we're doing something to the wellness of people.
Kirill (33:53)
Yeah, question is how to avoid any kind of manipulation with such data. Yeah, because if I can be stressful, but probably I'm not as stressful. Yeah, but I want the day, I want the additional day off. Yeah. And the question is a transparency to be transparent and to have some kind of a trust in the team to.
use this data and results as a value, yeah, but not like a tool for manipulation, for instance.
Jiani (34:33)
And then I am curious from the data validity perspective, are there cases where the data shows that the person is at the verge of burning out? However, this person is actually not. Like what's the accuracy rate or the...
Yeah, what's the, are the data a hundred percent accurate or were there may be a margin of like error that it may, people may be what the data shows or people may not. What's the.
Kirill (35:16)
You know, if you're talking about the accuracy of data, I will tell you one thing. Why do we use a headset itself? Yeah. Today, this is the only technology which where we can create absolutely controllable and reproducible environment. I mean, I mean that it doesn't matter you are hundreds.
people before you or after you, you will be sitting in the one position and you will be doing the same actions in the same environment. And means that the quality of measurement is really, really huge. When we will edit our data, we made an experiment. Before the test and virtual reality was our solution, we asked a person to fill in two questionnaires.
One questionary was 50 questions. Another questionary was like a scale with 10 levels. But what is more important in the first and the second questionaries about the same topic anxiety. And we assumed that we will see the correlation between answers means that this two questionaries are really correct. We tested more than 100
20 managers and correlation in the woman was 5 % in men was zero means everybody is lying. And if I will ask you for instance to fill in questionary right now here, yeah, within our conversation or for instance at your home with a cup of tea or thought test or sort questionaries the same questionary will be outside on the street.
We will get three different journey question this. You can, you can test it. You can, you can check it. but here the headset itself close off a person from external noises like sound environment, people, everything what can influence in our state and also, provide us a portion of stress. Yeah. The headset is close off from external noise. Second point,
Jiani (37:18)
No.
Kirill (37:44)
being fully immersed, you are not able to control yourself. Means that we are getting your real physiological data. And third point, if in real life I would put any kind of sensors on your body, like for instance, I would use some kind of a cap with a wet electrodes or something like this, put some kind of a...
Jiani (38:01)
Hmm.
Kirill (38:10)
Cardio device with Electrodes first of all, this is time -consuming process and secondly the process itself also Provide you a stress this like a white coat effect when you visit for doctor to measure your blood pressure You see white coat and your blood pressure is going down going up. Yeah, because you're afraid for Yes, because you're afraid for doctor for instance in our case. Everything is
Jiani (38:33)
Yeah, it's introducing variables and choosing them.
Kirill (38:39)
embedded into the headset and for a user is absolutely invisible because in order to get into VR, you must to make a traditional action. Just put the head on your head or put the headset on your head. Yeah. So, and from this point of view, we are getting absolutely clear physiological data and we have absolutely clear and controllable measurement environment.
with very high reliability of the data.
Jiani (39:15)
I like that, by controlling the environment and the variables can definitely increase the accuracy rate. In that sense. And as we will see, technologies evolve so fast. And now we're leveraging the virtual reality. There are like Gen .ai and AGI way in the future. There are also like a brand machine interaction.
Kirill (39:22)
Absolutely.
Jiani (39:44)
and web 3 .0, of all those technologies kind of just rushing into our future reality, also current reality, how do you see the future, like the best kind of future that from your approach and your perspective, what would that look like? Will it best be like device agnostic or will, I don't know.
I'm just curious.
Kirill (40:16)
clear you know probably I might be saying something unpopular now but unfortunately to this generation our children they are digital natives living in constant information noise here and they may not know how to tighten a nut for instance but they are adept at swiping scrolling like
Jiani (40:37)
Yeah.
Kirill (40:45)
and so on and so forth. And I dream of advanced technologies but only as tools to assist humans. People should still have the ability to think, create, build, love and hate. However, technology should definitely serve as a bridge to enhancing human physical and mental health.
For me, technology is just a tool, but not something unique, because we must be unique.
Jiani (41:26)
I think ultimately technology is to help us increase our capabilities. Like you said, through the data, we are able to be more aware, or at least be in trend to be more aware of our physiological state, whether we're stressful, whether we are performing. And ultimately, it's helping us as human beings to be more
aware and understanding of who we are, how do we respond to stress, and how do we harness stress into performance or not. So it's all coming about to the inner wisdom through the power of technology. I love that. I love that. So no matter how, how many technologies or how many diversity of technologies that it's only helping us, and we need to position ourselves in that, in that state.
Kirill (42:22)
Exactly.
Jiani (42:23)
Beautiful. And were there any potential risks and challenges that you foresee? And you probably mentioned some of those. Are there any safety, like safeguard that we can put now toward the future? Or I mean, number one is definitely the mindset. Like human needs to be the master of technology. And what's some other one?
Kirill (42:50)
You know, if we are talking about the main risk, that for me, the main risk involves working with physiological data. Because for many, this is very sensitive and taboo subject, yeah? And therefore, one of the primary concerns is ensuring that the security of the data and demonstrating and proving that under
under no circumstances can be accessed by unauthorized parties. So physiological data is one of the most risky situations here. Definitely today is not possible based on your physiology recognize you. Yeah, it's not possible based on your cardio or brain or whatever, but still.
For many people, it's really sensitive data.
Jiani (43:48)
depending on what people want the data for and how they use that. So definitely they protect privacy and that's beautiful. And is there any particular thought leaders that you follow that you would recommend our audience to continue learning about this space?
Kirill (43:54)
Exactly.
Mm -hmm.
If you're talking about our subject, I appreciate what colleagues from OpenBCI are doing with their Galeo headset and the very interesting solution from Korean Luxit company. They're also working in the field of...
neuro and brain activities. There are many startups emerging in the field of neuro data, for instance, not so many in cardio, I mean, in collaboration with VR, but still, and definitely it's fascinating to watch Elon Musk and his venture into invasive implants. Yeah, we live in quite interesting time times where we're probably artificial intelligence and
Jiani (44:59)
Yeah.
Kirill (45:05)
In the future, artificial psychologists and psychotherapists who understand physiology as well, could be the cherry on top.
Jiani (45:15)
I love that. So it's like a lot of cross -disciplinary work coming. That's beautiful. And so let me give our audience a brief recap of so far what we've talked about. We've covered a lot of things and we're moving to the magic conversation. So so far we've talked about Kuril Sastari, how and why.
Kirill (45:20)
Yes.
Jiani (45:39)
He founded CleverPoint and what does CleverPoint mean? And we talked about, he showed us a chart of like where is, you know, people's physiology data, which is basically mind and heart. And through that chart, we were able to see who are those people thrive in stress and do high performing, who are people who when their stress is high, they kind of, the cognitive functions are being compromised. And we also talk about,
from like a longitudinal perspective, even people who have high performing and high stress, these may or may not sustain. And again, it differs from different people's physiological state. So we, a topic of physiological diversity was born and how that can be a powerful language and tool for managers, leaders, and even talents to be more aware of their physiological state and...
start communicating with evidence or data informed communications with each other so they can have the best collaborations moving forward, solving problems for other group of people. And we also talked about some potential future challenges of such a physiological data, because that can be very private, even though it's
can be anonymous, but still the data can be very tricky depending on who wants to do what to the data. So privacy is number one concern. And we're also talking about from kind of a philosophical perspective as the technology starts to evolve, it becomes more and more important for humans as the real intelligence.
to take control or to master all the technologies and leverage technologies to help us enhance more self -awareness, better communications and deeper empathy within the team and with each other. Beautiful. And as we move into the magic conversations, so Kirill, what did you enjoy doing when you were 11 or 12 years old?
Kirill (47:54)
Right.
Jiani (48:05)
Time just disappeared.
Kirill (48:05)
Hehehehehe
Good question. From modern to the past. You know, I love music and reading. I enjoyed walking in the forest and making crafts from wood, for instance. I liked moving the lawn with the traditional hand size, you know, probably you heard.
Jiani (48:11)
Heheheheh
Kirill (48:35)
I skilled at few poses today for instance. I loved socializing and meeting with friends. It was a great, lovely time. Back then, there were no smartphones or computer games, so we invented our own games. And I couldn't afford to buy the game Monopoly for instance, so I made my own version of it with my friends.
I also loved making bows and arrows and even crafted a crossbow. So it was a very nice period of time.
Jiani (49:13)
very diverse. That's beautiful.
Kirill (49:15)
Absolutely.
Because be flexible in period of time when you have a lot of constraints and you have no ability to buy or to purchase something. Your fantasy and yeah, it's your abstract vision and some kind of fantasy and you can do everything.
Jiani (49:34)
So it becomes very creative.
Were you able to do some of those like right now? Like used to play piano, still jazz.
Kirill (49:49)
Yes, I like making crafts from wood still. But yeah, more already serious like chairs or beds or something like this.
Jiani (50:06)
I love that. Woodwork is actually, yeah, the way for us to be creative. Do you play music?
Kirill (50:12)
develop our brain we must work with hands you know because hands develop our brain as well.
Jiani (50:19)
Yeah, there was a book called Extended Mind. It's like how our physical body is actually part of our learning mechanisms, not just here. Wonderful. Were there any particular challenges that you have to go through and help to shape who you are as of now? 2024?
Kirill (50:27)
Right, right.
You know, to be honest, I'm afraid that I will get tired of moving forward. And there should always be an untouchable goal, because the journey to it's more important than the goal itself.
Jiani (51:02)
I think it's whenever we feel like, there's a goal, we need to reach it. And once we reach it, now we have the new responsibility of, okay, what's the next goal? And while we're on the journey, we know this is our North Star, at least for the next five, 10, even more years. And that helps us to decrease part of the stress.
Kirill (51:26)
Right.
Jiani (51:29)
And what do you think overall is your magic?
Kirill (51:34)
desire to help people.
I like to help.
This is like a boomerang, you know? Like if you run this boomerang, boomerang of help, someday this help come back to you.
Maybe, yes, maybe not, but doesn't matter. Help is good desire and good goal.
Jiani (52:01)
the process of throwing that Boomerang is very gratifying already. And then if it comes, great. And if not, that's okay. I'll keep throwing Boomerangs. I love that. And...
Kirill (52:15)
Exactly. And don't wait for any kind of response like a thanks or whatever from people. If you are waiting for a thank you, it's not so clear, traditional. It must be a goal from your soul.
Jiani (52:32)
conditional.
the essence of you. We want to be very helpful. And that rejuvenates our soul and makes our existence enjoyable. Beautiful. And thank you, Creel, for such a wonderful data pact and philosophy pact and happiness pact conversation. And...
For folks who want to get connected with Creel, all his contact information is in the show note below. So we really, really encourage you to get connected and hope our community can grow and people can help each other and enjoy the process of helping each other and enjoy the process of being helped. Yes.
Kirill (53:28)
being helped. Thank you very much and be healthy. Peace to everybody.
Jiani (53:35)
Yes. May our audience, may the leaders, the talents who are listening to this podcast, take a deep breath in and look into your physiological state in your minds and try to feel, are my, you know, am I in a stress point? Am I, am I not? And how is that impacting my performance? And if you need more data, just call Creel. He will let you know. And he's...
Kirill (54:02)
Right.
Jiani (54:04)
You're also in the process of making it more adaptable. But we need to control the experiment conditions. So that's the challenge that you need to figure out. Wonderful. So great to have you, Krile. And we'll see you next time.
Kirill (54:15)
Yes.
Thank you, bye.
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